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> As a relatively seasoned meditator, I am absolutely sure that this is the trip that helps, not the chemistry The trip is (also) the chemistry!

amelius 3y ago
Can we create a trip without drugs but e.g. using VR goggles only?
- aftoprokrustes 3y ago
  There are people looking at "psychedelic game design", see e.g. https://anticiplay.medium.com/chocolate-covered-magic-mushrooms-6bc760a6d850 https://anticiplay.medium.com/chocolate-covered-magic-mushro... They are not looking at creating a "trippy" experience per se, but rather to generate an experience that produces a potential shift in the way to relate with the world
- taraparo 3y ago
  The Lumenate app. Or if you don't count oxygen as a drug: Breathwork (Holotropic Breathwork, Quantum Light Breathing, Shamanic Breathing, Rebirthing, etc.). Never tried but I heard that multi-day retreats in complete darkness can also induce some kind of (visual) trips.
- LocalH 3y ago
  Only if it's so immersive that it feels more real than reality. If you can at all tell that it's not "real", then it all falls apart.
  - aftoprokrustes 3y ago
    This might be true if what you want is to emulate the experience under actual psychedelic drugs; I do not think that this is necessary if your only aim is to create _transformative_ or _healing_ experiences. One of the core concepts of Rob Burbea I mentionned above is the idea of "imaginal middle way", which, in short, consists in seeing mental images as "neither real nor not real", "simultanously discovered and created". Going deeper into that topic would require way too much text and time for a simple comment here, but I can tell from experience that this way to engage with imaginative faculties can have deep and long lasting effects. And the important aspect here is that, while engaging with the image, one is constantly balancing between reification (considereing the image, for instance of a divinity, as having independent reality) and disdain (considering the image as "just made up").
- ta988 3y ago
  No because most of the trip is absolutely not about visuals (even more with Ketamine).
aftoprokrustes 3y ago
I think I see what you mean, in the sense that without the substance the trip does not exist. The distinction I was trying to make was between the subjective experience compared to potential brain changes induced by chemical reactions. The "chemistry" side of the debate would be that the trip is a side effect of the substance modifying neurological pathways (or similar), but what is actually important are those physical modifications to the brain, not the experience. The "trip" side of the debate would be that the only important thing is the experience, and that whether it is induced by drugs, fasting, meditation, prayer, video games, etc. does not matter that much. Obviously, there is also the possibility that both sides are valid: the fact that the experience can be transformative in itself does not prevent the physical effect of the molecule on the brain to be beneficial as well. There is even the possibility that one of the two has a positive effect, while the other is rather negative.
FollowingTheDao 3y ago
> The trip is (also) the chemistry! Thank you! Yes, the trip is caused by activation of the HTR2A receptor. It is not magic. everything you experience is both affected by and affects the biology of the body. You know, I have a fried, diagnosed with depression 15 years ago, tried everything, nothing worked. Know what they finally found her problem was? Familial (genetically caused) hypoglycemia. We cannot even diagnose depression, it is still too subjective nad personalized. Stop looking for these one size fits all miracle cures and look at your own body.

amelius 3y ago

Can we create a trip without drugs but e.g. using VR goggles only?

aftoprokrustes 3y ago
There are people looking at "psychedelic game design", see e.g. https://anticiplay.medium.com/chocolate-covered-magic-mushrooms-6bc760a6d850 https://anticiplay.medium.com/chocolate-covered-magic-mushro... They are not looking at creating a "trippy" experience per se, but rather to generate an experience that produces a potential shift in the way to relate with the world
taraparo 3y ago
The Lumenate app. Or if you don't count oxygen as a drug: Breathwork (Holotropic Breathwork, Quantum Light Breathing, Shamanic Breathing, Rebirthing, etc.). Never tried but I heard that multi-day retreats in complete darkness can also induce some kind of (visual) trips.
LocalH 3y ago
Only if it's so immersive that it feels more real than reality. If you can at all tell that it's not "real", then it all falls apart.
- aftoprokrustes 3y ago
  This might be true if what you want is to emulate the experience under actual psychedelic drugs; I do not think that this is necessary if your only aim is to create _transformative_ or _healing_ experiences. One of the core concepts of Rob Burbea I mentionned above is the idea of "imaginal middle way", which, in short, consists in seeing mental images as "neither real nor not real", "simultanously discovered and created". Going deeper into that topic would require way too much text and time for a simple comment here, but I can tell from experience that this way to engage with imaginative faculties can have deep and long lasting effects. And the important aspect here is that, while engaging with the image, one is constantly balancing between reification (considereing the image, for instance of a divinity, as having independent reality) and disdain (considering the image as "just made up").
ta988 3y ago
No because most of the trip is absolutely not about visuals (even more with Ketamine).

aftoprokrustes 3y ago

I think I see what you mean, in the sense that without the substance the trip does not exist. The distinction I was trying to make was between the subjective experience compared to potential brain changes induced by chemical reactions. The "chemistry" side of the debate would be that the trip is a side effect of the substance modifying neurological pathways (or similar), but what is actually important are those physical modifications to the brain, not the experience. The "trip" side of the debate would be that the only important thing is the experience, and that whether it is induced by drugs, fasting, meditation, prayer, video games, etc. does not matter that much. Obviously, there is also the possibility that both sides are valid: the fact that the experience can be transformative in itself does not prevent the physical effect of the molecule on the brain to be beneficial as well. There is even the possibility that one of the two has a positive effect, while the other is rather negative.

FollowingTheDao 3y ago

> The trip is (also) the chemistry! Thank you! Yes, the trip is caused by activation of the HTR2A receptor. It is not magic. everything you experience is both affected by and affects the biology of the body. You know, I have a fried, diagnosed with depression 15 years ago, tried everything, nothing worked. Know what they finally found her problem was? Familial (genetically caused) hypoglycemia. We cannot even diagnose depression, it is still too subjective nad personalized. Stop looking for these one size fits all miracle cures and look at your own body.