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Middle managers are a dime a dozen. However a good technical lead - who can contribute to the engineering team's discussions _and_ lead the team are very very

Middle managers are a dime a dozen. However a good technical lead - who can contribute to the engineering team's discussions _and_ lead the team are very very hard to find.

urthor 3y ago
Really? IMO there's an awful lot, they just ask for mid 200,000s.
- ambicapter 3y ago
  Key word is "good" here.
- jldugger 3y ago
  I've met plenty of engineering leaders being paid double that who are not "good at their job." It's a hard job to do well; it requires you care about technical details but also deal almost exclusively with people. It's a rare person who naturally fits into the "extrovert engineer" role and corporations are shitty about training those who don't fit yet to practice the right behaviors. Plus, if engineering is "design with constraints" then you are given the extra restraint of headcount and finances.
  - urthor 3y ago
    Where are these people located and how can I take their jobs. $400,000k for dev + fun at parties, sign me up
    - jldugger 3y ago
      Don't even have to take their jobs. Here's one example[1] from the OP's former employer: > The base pay range for this role is between $196,000 and $299,000, and your base pay will depend on your skills, qualifications, experience, and location. ... employees are eligible for discretionary restricted stock unit awards, and can purchase stock at a discount if voluntarily participating in the Employee Stock Purchase Plan. [1]: https://careers.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineering-manager-cloud-infrastructure-ml-platform-infrastructure?team=MLAI https://careers.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engin...
      - tired_star_nrg 3y ago
        Can’t see your link, it just asks me to sign into AppleConnect
        jldugger 3y ago
        Aww jeez, and I cant edit the comment. Here's a working link: https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineering-manager-cloud-infrastructure-ml-platform-infrastructure?team=MLAI https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineer...
matwood 3y ago
The most important part of your comment is the distinction between 'management' and 'lead'. Leadership is critically important and very hard to find. Ideally you find a leader who doesn't mind managing, though you're getting into unicorn territory.
karaterobot 3y ago
Hot take: I think good middle managers are more rare than good technical leads. "But my manager sucks!" Yes, probably. Part of the reason managers have a bad reputation is that there are so few good ones, and so many bad or mediocre ones, that most people deal with bad ones their entire career. And, since a good manager looks a lot like leadership material if you squint, the great ones often get Peter Principled into being mediocre bosses. But when you do find a good manager, you realize they have a very specific skill set that is incredibly rare and difficult to master. They multiply the effectiveness of everyone on their team, including those good technical leads, but also the juniors and seniors.

Middle managers are a dime a dozen. However a good technical lead - who can contribute to the engineering team's discussions _and_ lead the team are very very hard to find.

urthor 3y ago

Really? IMO there's an awful lot, they just ask for mid 200,000s.

ambicapter 3y ago
Key word is "good" here.
jldugger 3y ago
I've met plenty of engineering leaders being paid double that who are not "good at their job." It's a hard job to do well; it requires you care about technical details but also deal almost exclusively with people. It's a rare person who naturally fits into the "extrovert engineer" role and corporations are shitty about training those who don't fit yet to practice the right behaviors. Plus, if engineering is "design with constraints" then you are given the extra restraint of headcount and finances.
- urthor 3y ago
  Where are these people located and how can I take their jobs. $400,000k for dev + fun at parties, sign me up
  - jldugger 3y ago
    Don't even have to take their jobs. Here's one example[1] from the OP's former employer: > The base pay range for this role is between $196,000 and $299,000, and your base pay will depend on your skills, qualifications, experience, and location. ... employees are eligible for discretionary restricted stock unit awards, and can purchase stock at a discount if voluntarily participating in the Employee Stock Purchase Plan. [1]: https://careers.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineering-manager-cloud-infrastructure-ml-platform-infrastructure?team=MLAI https://careers.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engin...
    - tired_star_nrg 3y ago
      Can’t see your link, it just asks me to sign into AppleConnect
      - jldugger 3y ago
        Aww jeez, and I cant edit the comment. Here's a working link: https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineering-manager-cloud-infrastructure-ml-platform-infrastructure?team=MLAI https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200442275/aiml-engineer...

matwood 3y ago

The most important part of your comment is the distinction between 'management' and 'lead'. Leadership is critically important and very hard to find. Ideally you find a leader who doesn't mind managing, though you're getting into unicorn territory.

karaterobot 3y ago

Hot take: I think good middle managers are more rare than good technical leads. "But my manager sucks!" Yes, probably. Part of the reason managers have a bad reputation is that there are so few good ones, and so many bad or mediocre ones, that most people deal with bad ones their entire career. And, since a good manager looks a lot like leadership material if you squint, the great ones often get Peter Principled into being mediocre bosses. But when you do find a good manager, you realize they have a very specific skill set that is incredibly rare and difficult to master. They multiply the effectiveness of everyone on their team, including those good technical leads, but also the juniors and seniors.