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Totally valid point that swift is only useful for developing for Apple products, but this same criticism also applies more or less to Kotlin on Android. If you

Totally valid point that swift is only useful for developing for Apple products, but this same criticism also applies more or less to Kotlin on Android. If you are dealing with iOS it is a joy compared to objective C. I would also add that it is a really nice language in general that is modern, expressive and general ergonomic.

philwelch 3y ago
I thought Kotlin was pretty widely used as a Java alternative on the backend
- fnord77 3y ago
  Kotlin seems kinds of pointless with the features in newer Java versions
  - d3nj4l 3y ago
    No amount of lipstick on the java pig will make it as ergonomic to use by default as kotlin.
    - scns 3y ago
      Harsh but have to agree.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It is enough that it is the Java Virtual Machine, not Kotlin Virtual Machine. Hence why Kotlin only really matters on Android.
  - doyouevensunbro 3y ago
    Just looking at Java’s upcoming string interpolation makes me so happy I moved to Kotlin years ago. https://openjdk.org/jeps/430 https://openjdk.org/jeps/430
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    Would Java had advanced without Kotlin on its doorstep?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Yes, because Kotlin hardly matters in regards to the JVM.
    - fnord77 3y ago
      Lots of languages are converging on features and idioms. Scala and Haskell have had an influence on New Java too.
- rahmeero 3y ago
  An example is smart contracts on the Corda blockchain, which is programmed in Kotlin. It may be me, but I have seen more Kotlin outside of Android than on it.
chii 3y ago
> this same criticism also applies more or less to Kotlin on Android. i think kotlin has more use outside compared to swift. But a language has to start somewhere, so i wouldn't hold it against swift. It's a fairly well done language regardless, and nothing apple specific about it tbh (which are all just libraries).
Illniyar 3y ago
Kotlin wasn't developed for Android. And can be run anywhere. It was JetBrains pet project to fix archaic stuff in Java without making a Scala. It was designed from the get go for a wide base (as wide as java). I'm not sure how it became Android's main target, but I doubt it was the original purpose.
- jszymborski 3y ago
  Further to that point, Kotlin mainly targets the JVM (which can run pretty much everywhere), but also can be compiled to JavaScript, LLVM, and a bunch of other targets. Honestly the only times I've evaluated Kotlin for personal projects was bc of that flexibility.
  - singularity2001 3y ago
    recently kotlin can even be used to compile to native and wasm, but gradle makes it almost less usable than swift
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    With various levels of implementation quality, Kotlin/Native had to be rebooted, on JS it hardly offers anything better than TypeScript, on the JVM it is mostly used by Android shops anyway.
- radley 3y ago
  I think everyone jumped from Java to Kotlin due to Oracle suing Google over Java in Android. It also provided a huge opportunity to be more deliberate since Android was maturing.
  - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    Oracle sued Google over the Android's implementation of Java's API. Kotlin still uses those APIs as it is compiled to Java bytecode on Android.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    That is an urban myth. If that was the case, they would have adopted Dart instead of keeping an high dependency on the Java ecosystem for Android. Android Studio, Gradle, Kotlin compiler, the libraries that Android depends on from Maven Central, all Java.
stevefan1999 3y ago
At least I got to integrate Spring Boot well with Kotlin. Same goes for writing Minecraft mods.

philwelch 3y ago

I thought Kotlin was pretty widely used as a Java alternative on the backend

fnord77 3y ago
Kotlin seems kinds of pointless with the features in newer Java versions
- d3nj4l 3y ago
  No amount of lipstick on the java pig will make it as ergonomic to use by default as kotlin.
  - scns 3y ago
    Harsh but have to agree.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It is enough that it is the Java Virtual Machine, not Kotlin Virtual Machine. Hence why Kotlin only really matters on Android.
- doyouevensunbro 3y ago
  Just looking at Java’s upcoming string interpolation makes me so happy I moved to Kotlin years ago. https://openjdk.org/jeps/430 https://openjdk.org/jeps/430
- fbdab103 3y ago
  Would Java had advanced without Kotlin on its doorstep?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Yes, because Kotlin hardly matters in regards to the JVM.
  - fnord77 3y ago
    Lots of languages are converging on features and idioms. Scala and Haskell have had an influence on New Java too.
rahmeero 3y ago
An example is smart contracts on the Corda blockchain, which is programmed in Kotlin. It may be me, but I have seen more Kotlin outside of Android than on it.

chii 3y ago

> this same criticism also applies more or less to Kotlin on Android. i think kotlin has more use outside compared to swift. But a language has to start somewhere, so i wouldn't hold it against swift. It's a fairly well done language regardless, and nothing apple specific about it tbh (which are all just libraries).

Illniyar 3y ago

Kotlin wasn't developed for Android. And can be run anywhere. It was JetBrains pet project to fix archaic stuff in Java without making a Scala. It was designed from the get go for a wide base (as wide as java). I'm not sure how it became Android's main target, but I doubt it was the original purpose.

jszymborski 3y ago
Further to that point, Kotlin mainly targets the JVM (which can run pretty much everywhere), but also can be compiled to JavaScript, LLVM, and a bunch of other targets. Honestly the only times I've evaluated Kotlin for personal projects was bc of that flexibility.
- singularity2001 3y ago
  recently kotlin can even be used to compile to native and wasm, but gradle makes it almost less usable than swift
- pjmlp 3y ago
  With various levels of implementation quality, Kotlin/Native had to be rebooted, on JS it hardly offers anything better than TypeScript, on the JVM it is mostly used by Android shops anyway.
radley 3y ago
I think everyone jumped from Java to Kotlin due to Oracle suing Google over Java in Android. It also provided a huge opportunity to be more deliberate since Android was maturing.
- nazgulsenpai 3y ago
  Oracle sued Google over the Android's implementation of Java's API. Kotlin still uses those APIs as it is compiled to Java bytecode on Android.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  That is an urban myth. If that was the case, they would have adopted Dart instead of keeping an high dependency on the Java ecosystem for Android. Android Studio, Gradle, Kotlin compiler, the libraries that Android depends on from Maven Central, all Java.

stevefan1999 3y ago

At least I got to integrate Spring Boot well with Kotlin. Same goes for writing Minecraft mods.