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> Yoshida has admitted to the charges, saying “I knew it was illegal, even as I was doing it.” Japan’s “justice” system is based on something outlawed in Engla

> Yoshida has admitted to the charges, saying “I knew it was illegal, even as I was doing it.” Japan’s “justice” system is based on something outlawed in England nigh on 800 years ago under Magna Carta (remedied as habeus corpus). It’s basically legalised kidnapping by the police where they hold you hostage to yourself until you admit the charges against you. You may be held indefinitely, if the court so wishes. Thus, his confession should be seen with scepticism as to its truth.

pokepim 3y ago
Aren’t laws in Japan constructed to be like that? Cumbersome, inefficient and thwarting meaningful progress? When we defeated Japan in WW2 we made sure that they became our “ally” and also had huge role in creating their laws and government. So this is intentional so that they are not able to surpass us ever again. Any reform will be shut down by current japanese government which was and still is propped up by CIA basically. This is what you get when you lose world war
- ashildr 3y ago
  > This is what you get when you lose world war (Coughs in German) No.
  - smallstepforman 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
      To whom? Could you explain your comment please.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        Don't bother. Probably something along the lines of: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsb%C3%BCrger_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsb%C3%BCrger_movement
  - petre 3y ago
    They've got a much better deal than Eastern Europe, who went into the Soviets' sphere of influence for 50 years. But the US and the UK are willing to fix this by including those countries into NATO and giving the Ukrainians weapons to defend themselves (and the rest of Europe).
- toyg 3y ago
  No. Japanese bureaucracy was always influenced by Chinese bureaucracy, which has always been ponderous and focused on "harmony" more than efficiency. The Meiji period, when they made their huge leap into industrial modernity, was the exception, not the rule. I'd also take objection with the "surpass us" term. Japan was not "ahead" in technological terms until the late postwar period. Before WW2 they were almost on par, and largely because they made massive efforts to pilfer technology and methodologies from Western Europe. It was after WW2, when they were forbidden from military expansion, that they focused on economic development (again with massive "imports" of know-how), so much that they briefly "surpassed" the by-then-dominant US in certain fields.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    The increase would bring it [Japan] into line with Nato countries and make it the world’s third-biggest spender on defence after the US and China. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/16/japan-approves-biggest-military-buildup-since-second-world-war-amid-china-fears https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/16/japan-approves...
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    >they made massive efforts to pilfer technology and methodologies from Western Europe. // You can't steal ideas. If they took technology, duplicated it and made it better then that's a good thing. >so much that they briefly "surpassed" // They copied, but they got a better grade? This sounds like a good thing, something all technology companies working in the same area should strive for, and indeed how patents (in a limited way) and open-source work : one creates improvement over the current developments. Why would you want people spending time 'reinventing the wheel' just because they live in another country. Use the best of tech and make it better if you can.
1letterunixname 3y ago
IIRC, on top of that, crimes in Japan aren't prosecuted unless a guilty verdict is assured.
- nullsense 3y ago
  Lawyers know the system is fucked and also basically advise false to give false confessions sometimes too, since it's hopeless after a certain point and trying to fight it is seen as delaying the inevitable.
  - iinnPP 3y ago
    Sounds a lot like the US Fed system for anyone who isn't rich and powerful.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
That's interesting but I have no background on Japanese legal system. Any details or links you can share?
- ddeck 3y ago
  https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2023/0505/Presumed-guilt-Unpacking-Japan-s-99.9-conviction-rate https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2023/0505/Presu...
dghughes 3y ago
I've seen travel videos of Japan where the person a local warns do not get arrested in Japan. It takes a month or two to get started as you sit in jail. Then you eventually get a lawyer who probably doesn't speak your language. And Japan has an unusually high 99.9% conviction rate.
- warning26 3y ago
  On the other side of the coin, Japan has an extremely low crime rate. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge their system to be bad.
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    Maybe they have a low crime rate for reasons that have nothing to do with prosecution.
    - mattigames 3y ago
      No, it definitely has a lot to do with that, but they are not as benovelent as the comment you are answering to is implying.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Why would benevolence be the only reason a culture might commit less crime?
      - huuhee3 3y ago
        IMO Japanese culture and lower level of individualism has a lot to do with the low crime rate. That's the main reason why they don't tolerate much bad behaviour in the first place, and have a justice system which reflects that.
        mattigames 3y ago
        For a very particular definition of "tolerate" that values appareances over actual justice, or at least that's the case when talking about sexual assault that goes completely unpunished: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-women-harassment-comments-factb-idUSKCN1IP089 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-women-harassment-co...
qbasic_forever 3y ago
America does this too, the trick they use is holding you indefinitely without having a bail hearing or trial. Kevin Mitnick was imprisoned for five years waiting bail, one of the longest cases of this treatment. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mitnick-released-from-prison/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mitnick-rele...
- throwaway09223 3y ago
  No, America doesn't do this. You have a right to a speedy trial and if you demand a speedy trial you will get one. Mitnick did not request a speedy trial, in fact he moved to delay the trial.
  - okwubodu 3y ago
    > Since 2002, 779 Muslim men and boys have been held at Guantánamo, nearly all of them without charge or trial. Today, 39 men remain indefinitely detained there, and 27 of them have never even been charged with any crime. Fourteen of those 27 have been cleared for transfer or release, some for years. https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/20-years-later-guantanamo-remains-a-disgraceful-stain-on-our-nation-it-needs-to-end https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/20-years-later-guanta...
    - lIl-IIIl 3y ago
      This is not a good example of what happens in America in general, since the position of the Bush administration was that Guantanamo Bay was outside of US legal jurisdiction. It was considered a alternative to the US court system.
      - okwubodu 3y ago
        > In the Bronx, DiMango’s job was to review cases and clear them: by getting weak cases dismissed, extracting guilty pleas from defendants, or referring cases to trial in another courtroom. At the start of 2013, there were nine hundred and fifty-two felony cases in the Bronx, including Browder’s, that were more than two years old. In the next twelve months, DiMango disposed of a thousand cases, some as old as five years. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law
formerly_proven 3y ago
On paper they do require the court to do it, but when it's just a formality... > Suspects can be detained for an "interview" in a daiyō kangoku for as many as seventy-two hours under the Code of Criminal Procedure. After this seventy-two-hour period, prosecutors can request a further ten days' detention of the suspect from a judge. These ten days are frequently used by the investigative authorities to gain confessions from the suspect. After the initial ten-day extension, the prosecutor can request a further ten days of detention from a judge, before the suspect must either be charged or released. Activists claim that requests for pre-trial detention after arrest are almost always granted by judges; in 1987, the rate of approval for all requests was 99.8% I don't think Western courts approve pre-trial detention at this rate, though I wouldn't be surprised if 99.8% of search warrants are granted, for example.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
atlantic 3y ago
You mean Britain's current justice system - judging by how many years Julian Assange has been held in prison without charges. Once you get past the propaganda, our Western justice is really nothing to gloat about.
- midasuni 3y ago
  Assange was charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned in 2019. He was freed from that after serving his sentence. He since been held awaiting extradition after being charged in the US with a ton of crimes Since then various of appeals have been progressing to extradite him or not, and quite rightly as someone convicted of fleeing bail He not eligible for bail.
  - atlantic 3y ago
    He was convicted of jumping bail. But not of any actual crime. As regards the US, be specific: he's being punished for tarnishing its image by revealing extrajudicial murder on a massive scale.
    - midasuni 3y ago
      Jumping bail is a crime, a crime he rightly paid for, and I wouldn’t expect someone who jumped bail to be granted bail. I’m no fan of the one sided extradition treaty the U.K. and US has, however the US has raised plenty of charges including conspiracy to hack, actually hacking, and the espionage one.
      - atlantic 3y ago
        Jumping bail was perfectly justified under the circumstances, since he was at risk of extradition (or extraordinary rendition) to the US, where his chances of a fair trial are nil. As for the alleged offenses, they were not committed on US soil, so they are outside the jurisdiction of American courts.
- gexla 3y ago
  I'm not familiar with the case, but isn't he essentially fighting to stay in UK prison rather than being moved to the US? Sure, he's also fighting to get out of UK prison, but the main fight is, not getting extradited. This boils down to a preference of where to be imprisoned?
tyingq 3y ago
Mark Karpeles seemed to have found a way to navigate the system pretty well. No confession. He was convicted, but doesn't go to prison if he stays out of trouble for 4 years.

pokepim 3y ago

Aren’t laws in Japan constructed to be like that? Cumbersome, inefficient and thwarting meaningful progress? When we defeated Japan in WW2 we made sure that they became our “ally” and also had huge role in creating their laws and government. So this is intentional so that they are not able to surpass us ever again. Any reform will be shut down by current japanese government which was and still is propped up by CIA basically. This is what you get when you lose world war

ashildr 3y ago
> This is what you get when you lose world war (Coughs in German) No.
- smallstepforman 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    To whom? Could you explain your comment please.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Don't bother. Probably something along the lines of: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsb%C3%BCrger_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsb%C3%BCrger_movement
- petre 3y ago
  They've got a much better deal than Eastern Europe, who went into the Soviets' sphere of influence for 50 years. But the US and the UK are willing to fix this by including those countries into NATO and giving the Ukrainians weapons to defend themselves (and the rest of Europe).
toyg 3y ago
No. Japanese bureaucracy was always influenced by Chinese bureaucracy, which has always been ponderous and focused on "harmony" more than efficiency. The Meiji period, when they made their huge leap into industrial modernity, was the exception, not the rule. I'd also take objection with the "surpass us" term. Japan was not "ahead" in technological terms until the late postwar period. Before WW2 they were almost on par, and largely because they made massive efforts to pilfer technology and methodologies from Western Europe. It was after WW2, when they were forbidden from military expansion, that they focused on economic development (again with massive "imports" of know-how), so much that they briefly "surpassed" the by-then-dominant US in certain fields.
- TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
  The increase would bring it [Japan] into line with Nato countries and make it the world’s third-biggest spender on defence after the US and China. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/16/japan-approves-biggest-military-buildup-since-second-world-war-amid-china-fears https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/16/japan-approves...
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  >they made massive efforts to pilfer technology and methodologies from Western Europe. // You can't steal ideas. If they took technology, duplicated it and made it better then that's a good thing. >so much that they briefly "surpassed" // They copied, but they got a better grade? This sounds like a good thing, something all technology companies working in the same area should strive for, and indeed how patents (in a limited way) and open-source work : one creates improvement over the current developments. Why would you want people spending time 'reinventing the wheel' just because they live in another country. Use the best of tech and make it better if you can.

1letterunixname 3y ago

IIRC, on top of that, crimes in Japan aren't prosecuted unless a guilty verdict is assured.

nullsense 3y ago
Lawyers know the system is fucked and also basically advise false to give false confessions sometimes too, since it's hopeless after a certain point and trying to fight it is seen as delaying the inevitable.
- iinnPP 3y ago
  Sounds a lot like the US Fed system for anyone who isn't rich and powerful.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

That's interesting but I have no background on Japanese legal system. Any details or links you can share?

ddeck 3y ago
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2023/0505/Presumed-guilt-Unpacking-Japan-s-99.9-conviction-rate https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2023/0505/Presu...

dghughes 3y ago

I've seen travel videos of Japan where the person a local warns do not get arrested in Japan. It takes a month or two to get started as you sit in jail. Then you eventually get a lawyer who probably doesn't speak your language. And Japan has an unusually high 99.9% conviction rate.

warning26 3y ago
On the other side of the coin, Japan has an extremely low crime rate. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge their system to be bad.
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  Maybe they have a low crime rate for reasons that have nothing to do with prosecution.
  - mattigames 3y ago
    No, it definitely has a lot to do with that, but they are not as benovelent as the comment you are answering to is implying.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Why would benevolence be the only reason a culture might commit less crime?
    - huuhee3 3y ago
      IMO Japanese culture and lower level of individualism has a lot to do with the low crime rate. That's the main reason why they don't tolerate much bad behaviour in the first place, and have a justice system which reflects that.
      - mattigames 3y ago
        For a very particular definition of "tolerate" that values appareances over actual justice, or at least that's the case when talking about sexual assault that goes completely unpunished: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-women-harassment-comments-factb-idUSKCN1IP089 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-women-harassment-co...

qbasic_forever 3y ago

America does this too, the trick they use is holding you indefinitely without having a bail hearing or trial. Kevin Mitnick was imprisoned for five years waiting bail, one of the longest cases of this treatment. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mitnick-released-from-prison/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mitnick-rele...

throwaway09223 3y ago
No, America doesn't do this. You have a right to a speedy trial and if you demand a speedy trial you will get one. Mitnick did not request a speedy trial, in fact he moved to delay the trial.
- okwubodu 3y ago
  > Since 2002, 779 Muslim men and boys have been held at Guantánamo, nearly all of them without charge or trial. Today, 39 men remain indefinitely detained there, and 27 of them have never even been charged with any crime. Fourteen of those 27 have been cleared for transfer or release, some for years. https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/20-years-later-guantanamo-remains-a-disgraceful-stain-on-our-nation-it-needs-to-end https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/20-years-later-guanta...
  - lIl-IIIl 3y ago
    This is not a good example of what happens in America in general, since the position of the Bush administration was that Guantanamo Bay was outside of US legal jurisdiction. It was considered a alternative to the US court system.
    - okwubodu 3y ago
      > In the Bronx, DiMango’s job was to review cases and clear them: by getting weak cases dismissed, extracting guilty pleas from defendants, or referring cases to trial in another courtroom. At the start of 2013, there were nine hundred and fifty-two felony cases in the Bronx, including Browder’s, that were more than two years old. In the next twelve months, DiMango disposed of a thousand cases, some as old as five years. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law

formerly_proven 3y ago

On paper they do require the court to do it, but when it's just a formality... > Suspects can be detained for an "interview" in a daiyō kangoku for as many as seventy-two hours under the Code of Criminal Procedure. After this seventy-two-hour period, prosecutors can request a further ten days' detention of the suspect from a judge. These ten days are frequently used by the investigative authorities to gain confessions from the suspect. After the initial ten-day extension, the prosecutor can request a further ten days of detention from a judge, before the suspect must either be charged or released. Activists claim that requests for pre-trial detention after arrest are almost always granted by judges; in 1987, the rate of approval for all requests was 99.8% I don't think Western courts approve pre-trial detention at this rate, though I wouldn't be surprised if 99.8% of search warrants are granted, for example.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

atlantic 3y ago

You mean Britain's current justice system - judging by how many years Julian Assange has been held in prison without charges. Once you get past the propaganda, our Western justice is really nothing to gloat about.

midasuni 3y ago
Assange was charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned in 2019. He was freed from that after serving his sentence. He since been held awaiting extradition after being charged in the US with a ton of crimes Since then various of appeals have been progressing to extradite him or not, and quite rightly as someone convicted of fleeing bail He not eligible for bail.
- atlantic 3y ago
  He was convicted of jumping bail. But not of any actual crime. As regards the US, be specific: he's being punished for tarnishing its image by revealing extrajudicial murder on a massive scale.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    Jumping bail is a crime, a crime he rightly paid for, and I wouldn’t expect someone who jumped bail to be granted bail. I’m no fan of the one sided extradition treaty the U.K. and US has, however the US has raised plenty of charges including conspiracy to hack, actually hacking, and the espionage one.
    - atlantic 3y ago
      Jumping bail was perfectly justified under the circumstances, since he was at risk of extradition (or extraordinary rendition) to the US, where his chances of a fair trial are nil. As for the alleged offenses, they were not committed on US soil, so they are outside the jurisdiction of American courts.
gexla 3y ago
I'm not familiar with the case, but isn't he essentially fighting to stay in UK prison rather than being moved to the US? Sure, he's also fighting to get out of UK prison, but the main fight is, not getting extradited. This boils down to a preference of where to be imprisoned?

tyingq 3y ago

Mark Karpeles seemed to have found a way to navigate the system pretty well. No confession. He was convicted, but doesn't go to prison if he stays out of trouble for 4 years.