4 ms·

this is one of the reasons I've been finding myself paying with cash more and more. While this seems fairly benign at first glance its becoming rather disturbin

this is one of the reasons I've been finding myself paying with cash more and more. While this seems fairly benign at first glance its becoming rather disturbing how much data is being collected and analyzed about consumers. In some ways I'm for stricter privacy laws like those in the EU.

antoncohen 15y ago
If it's benign now, do you see it becoming not benign? I'm fine with it, and I don't see it going in a direction that makes me uncomfortable. I knew Target and other stores were tracking me with my credit card, I noticed it specifically with Target too. At one retail chain I made my first purchase there with a debit card, almost immediately I started getting discount cards in the mail. I can't say for sure how they correlated me to my physical address, but I can guess. They were part of a larger company with other chains, one of which I purchased something from online, using the same debit card. People seem spooked out by Target using credit cards to track people, what about not using credit cards? Safeway uses Club Cards, and they to it totally in the open by giving people "Just for U" coupons on things they buy (I used two of them yesterday). I'm not at all bothered that Safeway gives me a coupon on the exact laundry detergent I always buy, I think it's pretty nice of them.
- devs1010 15y ago
  Yes, I can see how it could become not benign. With the way the government has been going, I could see them wanting access to all this data and even start doing something like profiling people's buying habits.. oh, so you frequently buy packs of mini zip-lock bags (the kind they sell weed and pills in)... must be a drug dealer.. the fear is mainly that the government would become active in profiling people's buying habits, they are already trying to gain more power over online data and I can see them doing it for this too. I think this sort of data collection could use some more regulation (in the form of consumer protection). Personally, I prefer to limit info I give to companies, I rarely put real info on those in-store cards, etc
  - antoncohen 15y ago
    The government using the info without a warrant would clearly be bad. Other non-benign uses I've thought of: supermarkets sharing your shopping habits with health insurance companies, so you get higher rates if you like beer and fried food, or banks checking your buying habits before issuing a home loan, denying the loan because your habit of buying frivolous expensive things makes you too high risk. So I see that there are possible bad uses of the data. But I don't see us heading in the direction of those bad uses. Hopefully our lawmakers will help protect our privacy while still allowing useful business analytics happen -- there's a balance to be had.
    - pacala 15y ago
      When was the last time you got a job without submitting to a "credit check"? Your very existence could be at risk if the "credit check" pigeon-holes you in the wrong category.
      - joezydeco 15y ago
        Credit checks are slowly being outlawed in various states and jurisdictions. Watch your social media tracks start to get scraped instead. Bet you'll think twice before clicking Like on that next web page.
  - JumpCrisscross 15y ago
    I worked at an investment bank. We used satellite imagery of EU countries to do demand forecasting. You should also know your communication signals aren't protected once they leave sovereign air space (around LEO). If the government wants your data they can get it. Using cash, which providing some theatric value, won't make you un-traceable (commercial banks track serial numbers through their systems). Not saying privacy regulation has no use - it does (though this example with Target seems innocuous; be wary of slippery slope fallacy). But you aren't protected against a determined counter-party.
- colonel_panic 15y ago
  I have to wonder how much benefit you're really getting from that coupon program if everybody is getting them. At grocery stores you basically have to use a club card to get the same prices you could have gotten if the store didn't have a club card. If you're an early adopter you can get good deals for a while, but as the number of customers in the program approaches critical mass, the benefit to each customer from having volunteered their information diminishes, and by then the Nash equilibrium is for everybody to be in the program. There's probably a name for this situation but I've forgotten it. It's like an inside-out race to the bottom. And if stores can track you just as easily through credit cards, then I wonder how long it will be until Target offers discounts for using credit cards instead of cash, if that's legal. (Also, you could be getting those coupons because you don't buy that laundry detergent as much as you could; if you bought it much more frequently they might guess that they couldn't get your purchase volume up much further by dropping the price.)
- pacala 15y ago
  It is not benign, now or ever. It is the ultimate discrimination tool, targeted on our private actions and not on broad categories like "petit-bourgeoise". Yeah, it's all fun and games if shops do it and they apply it to baby powder coupons. But the invasion of privacy and the private dossiers Target or Visa or Facebook are building on every one of us can be used in other contexts. Is this person likely to engage in extreme sports? Hike his health insurance quota 5x because he is a "risk" to profits. Does this job applicant fit a union sympathiser profile? Deny him the job, on the "pure" economic reason that he is a risk to our bottom line profits. I'd much rather ensure that this kind of data collection and targeting is illegal across the board. I'm ready to sacrifice the coupon industry, thank you very much.
  - etha 15y ago
    What is wrong with those scenarios? It sounds like you are proposing that instead of using this information, people should ignore it and make bad decisions.
    - devs1010 15y ago
      They shouldn't be allowed to use it. Who really wants to live in a 'fishbowl' world where every corporate entity and government organization can have full access to every minute detail of your life. It opens the door for rampant discrimination
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    Is this person likely to engage in extreme sports? Hike his health insurance quota 5x because he is a "risk" to profits. This person is likely to remain healthy for a long time, requiring little/no care for chronic ailments. Even in the event of an accident, it's likely to result in either death (free) or a serious injury (a moderately large one-time cost). The expensive person is the fattie who develops diabetes, blood clots, and all the other chronic ailments of a sedentary lifestyle. Those sorts of things are expensive.
jgw 15y ago
As a Canadian, I was very surprised when I did a coop term in 1997 in Mississippi, at how grocery stores had discount cards. We didn't have them up here at the time. Because it was only a 5% discount, and I didn't buy much as a starving student anyway, I only used it for certain, specific items, just to mess with their database. So if you mined my data, I appeared to be some guy who ate nothing, drank nothing but milk, and was an inordinately prodigious consumer of toilet paper. We have them up here in Canuckistan, now, too.

antoncohen 15y ago

If it's benign now, do you see it becoming not benign? I'm fine with it, and I don't see it going in a direction that makes me uncomfortable. I knew Target and other stores were tracking me with my credit card, I noticed it specifically with Target too. At one retail chain I made my first purchase there with a debit card, almost immediately I started getting discount cards in the mail. I can't say for sure how they correlated me to my physical address, but I can guess. They were part of a larger company with other chains, one of which I purchased something from online, using the same debit card. People seem spooked out by Target using credit cards to track people, what about not using credit cards? Safeway uses Club Cards, and they to it totally in the open by giving people "Just for U" coupons on things they buy (I used two of them yesterday). I'm not at all bothered that Safeway gives me a coupon on the exact laundry detergent I always buy, I think it's pretty nice of them.

devs1010 15y ago
Yes, I can see how it could become not benign. With the way the government has been going, I could see them wanting access to all this data and even start doing something like profiling people's buying habits.. oh, so you frequently buy packs of mini zip-lock bags (the kind they sell weed and pills in)... must be a drug dealer.. the fear is mainly that the government would become active in profiling people's buying habits, they are already trying to gain more power over online data and I can see them doing it for this too. I think this sort of data collection could use some more regulation (in the form of consumer protection). Personally, I prefer to limit info I give to companies, I rarely put real info on those in-store cards, etc
- antoncohen 15y ago
  The government using the info without a warrant would clearly be bad. Other non-benign uses I've thought of: supermarkets sharing your shopping habits with health insurance companies, so you get higher rates if you like beer and fried food, or banks checking your buying habits before issuing a home loan, denying the loan because your habit of buying frivolous expensive things makes you too high risk. So I see that there are possible bad uses of the data. But I don't see us heading in the direction of those bad uses. Hopefully our lawmakers will help protect our privacy while still allowing useful business analytics happen -- there's a balance to be had.
  - pacala 15y ago
    When was the last time you got a job without submitting to a "credit check"? Your very existence could be at risk if the "credit check" pigeon-holes you in the wrong category.
    - joezydeco 15y ago
      Credit checks are slowly being outlawed in various states and jurisdictions. Watch your social media tracks start to get scraped instead. Bet you'll think twice before clicking Like on that next web page.
- JumpCrisscross 15y ago
  I worked at an investment bank. We used satellite imagery of EU countries to do demand forecasting. You should also know your communication signals aren't protected once they leave sovereign air space (around LEO). If the government wants your data they can get it. Using cash, which providing some theatric value, won't make you un-traceable (commercial banks track serial numbers through their systems). Not saying privacy regulation has no use - it does (though this example with Target seems innocuous; be wary of slippery slope fallacy). But you aren't protected against a determined counter-party.
colonel_panic 15y ago
I have to wonder how much benefit you're really getting from that coupon program if everybody is getting them. At grocery stores you basically have to use a club card to get the same prices you could have gotten if the store didn't have a club card. If you're an early adopter you can get good deals for a while, but as the number of customers in the program approaches critical mass, the benefit to each customer from having volunteered their information diminishes, and by then the Nash equilibrium is for everybody to be in the program. There's probably a name for this situation but I've forgotten it. It's like an inside-out race to the bottom. And if stores can track you just as easily through credit cards, then I wonder how long it will be until Target offers discounts for using credit cards instead of cash, if that's legal. (Also, you could be getting those coupons because you don't buy that laundry detergent as much as you could; if you bought it much more frequently they might guess that they couldn't get your purchase volume up much further by dropping the price.)
pacala 15y ago
It is not benign, now or ever. It is the ultimate discrimination tool, targeted on our private actions and not on broad categories like "petit-bourgeoise". Yeah, it's all fun and games if shops do it and they apply it to baby powder coupons. But the invasion of privacy and the private dossiers Target or Visa or Facebook are building on every one of us can be used in other contexts. Is this person likely to engage in extreme sports? Hike his health insurance quota 5x because he is a "risk" to profits. Does this job applicant fit a union sympathiser profile? Deny him the job, on the "pure" economic reason that he is a risk to our bottom line profits. I'd much rather ensure that this kind of data collection and targeting is illegal across the board. I'm ready to sacrifice the coupon industry, thank you very much.
- etha 15y ago
  What is wrong with those scenarios? It sounds like you are proposing that instead of using this information, people should ignore it and make bad decisions.
  - devs1010 15y ago
    They shouldn't be allowed to use it. Who really wants to live in a 'fishbowl' world where every corporate entity and government organization can have full access to every minute detail of your life. It opens the door for rampant discrimination
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  Is this person likely to engage in extreme sports? Hike his health insurance quota 5x because he is a "risk" to profits. This person is likely to remain healthy for a long time, requiring little/no care for chronic ailments. Even in the event of an accident, it's likely to result in either death (free) or a serious injury (a moderately large one-time cost). The expensive person is the fattie who develops diabetes, blood clots, and all the other chronic ailments of a sedentary lifestyle. Those sorts of things are expensive.

jgw 15y ago

As a Canadian, I was very surprised when I did a coop term in 1997 in Mississippi, at how grocery stores had discount cards. We didn't have them up here at the time. Because it was only a 5% discount, and I didn't buy much as a starving student anyway, I only used it for certain, specific items, just to mess with their database. So if you mined my data, I appeared to be some guy who ate nothing, drank nothing but milk, and was an inordinately prodigious consumer of toilet paper. We have them up here in Canuckistan, now, too.