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I think some people have never experienced prolonged periods of suffering, and thus it is hard for them to imagine .

zozbot234 3y ago
We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching the utmost of equanimity. Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act, that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it is mired in her cravings. While some kinds of physical or spiritual pain might in fact be a real obstacle to attaining inner growth, this is quite rare and not what most people are dealing with.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  What about someone who has conquered their craving to continue living and decides they are prepared to embrace the end? Have you seen "The Good Place"? It's really quite an interesting show in that it combines a (sometimes very funny) sitcom with a pretty thoughtful exploration into the subject of ethics.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  > Life itself is synonymous with suffering What? No it isn't. Just because some guy wearing orange robes told you it is, doesn't mean it's true. I have been through a lot of depression and I would never accept such a statement alone: life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    You are in fact agreeing with what I said, in that we do experience peace and joy whenever we manage to lessen some of our cravings (and overcoming a state of depression is an especially clear example of this). But very few people hold freeing themselves of their spiritual fetters as their fundamental goal in life, and even fewer manage to achieve this. Thus, there is clearly a way in which life is synonymous with suffering, at least as a default state that we are all mired in from birth.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      Again, I totally disagree. A vast majority of humans experience peace and joy. A vast majority of humans also experience suffering. Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and not "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences that comprise it"?
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        > Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and not "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences that comprise it"? Because it's important to fully empathize with those who have not yet learned to view pain as merely one of "all the manifold experiences that comprise" life. It's good that you understand this more spiritually sound perspective but to most people, suffering (meaning the innumerable cravings and spiritual addictions that we are all subject to as part of living) is kind of a Big Deal. Sometimes it's so big of a deal that they make irreversible and very poorly considered decisions over it, as OP discusses.
        bowsamic 3y ago
        Literally the default western perspective is "life is a rollercoaster"
  - haswell 3y ago
    The Buddhist point of view on this is closer to “the default state of life is unsatisfactoriness”. The word “suffering” tends to elicit thoughts about pain and distracts from the myriad of other ways humans “suffer” daily. > life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy I’d argue that by default, life is closer to “unsatisfactoriness” than peace and joy, due largely to the evolutionary drives that make us strive for more. While you may be fortunate enough to experience the latter, it comes only through deliberate effort and a successful navigation of life’s basic survival requirements. Living in a modern society shields most people from the more persistent existential suffering of our ancestors. Hunger, thirst and bodily breakdown are guaranteed. Peace and joy are optional, but what make life worth living. But it is seeing “suffering” for what it is - a mental state that we have the power to change - that makes living a peaceful and joyous life possible.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  > We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering Sure, but people rarely consider suicide due to momentary suffering, or even suffering for a few weeks or month. People typically consider suicide when they can't see an end to their suffering, and while this is sometimes irrational there are also many cases where it isn't.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    I've already pointed out that suffering is inherent to life for most of us, so it encompasses far more than "a few weeks or month[s]". You seem to be focusing on the aversion of physical or spiritual pain, but that's merely one sort of suffering which is not different in nature from the far subtler and less obvious suffering we all experience throughout our lives.
    - vaidhy 3y ago
      There is suffering and there is suffering. Even Buddha differentiated between the physical needs and the spiritual pain. We now know there is also mental pain and it is disingenuous to categorize all of them into a single category.
    - imtringued 3y ago
      Ok, good that I don't have to care about this type of suffering then.
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        What if I told you that you don't have to care about any kind of suffering, other than perhaps some very rare extremes of physical pain. That's the point!

We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching the utmost of equanimity. Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act, that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it is mired in her cravings. While some kinds of physical or spiritual pain might in fact be a real obstacle to attaining inner growth, this is quite rare and not what most people are dealing with.

hotpotamus 3y ago
What about someone who has conquered their craving to continue living and decides they are prepared to embrace the end? Have you seen "The Good Place"? It's really quite an interesting show in that it combines a (sometimes very funny) sitcom with a pretty thoughtful exploration into the subject of ethics.
bowsamic 3y ago
> Life itself is synonymous with suffering What? No it isn't. Just because some guy wearing orange robes told you it is, doesn't mean it's true. I have been through a lot of depression and I would never accept such a statement alone: life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy
- zozbot234 3y ago
  You are in fact agreeing with what I said, in that we do experience peace and joy whenever we manage to lessen some of our cravings (and overcoming a state of depression is an especially clear example of this). But very few people hold freeing themselves of their spiritual fetters as their fundamental goal in life, and even fewer manage to achieve this. Thus, there is clearly a way in which life is synonymous with suffering, at least as a default state that we are all mired in from birth.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    Again, I totally disagree. A vast majority of humans experience peace and joy. A vast majority of humans also experience suffering. Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and not "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences that comprise it"?
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      > Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and not "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences that comprise it"? Because it's important to fully empathize with those who have not yet learned to view pain as merely one of "all the manifold experiences that comprise" life. It's good that you understand this more spiritually sound perspective but to most people, suffering (meaning the innumerable cravings and spiritual addictions that we are all subject to as part of living) is kind of a Big Deal. Sometimes it's so big of a deal that they make irreversible and very poorly considered decisions over it, as OP discusses.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        Literally the default western perspective is "life is a rollercoaster"
- haswell 3y ago
  The Buddhist point of view on this is closer to “the default state of life is unsatisfactoriness”. The word “suffering” tends to elicit thoughts about pain and distracts from the myriad of other ways humans “suffer” daily. > life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is with peace and joy I’d argue that by default, life is closer to “unsatisfactoriness” than peace and joy, due largely to the evolutionary drives that make us strive for more. While you may be fortunate enough to experience the latter, it comes only through deliberate effort and a successful navigation of life’s basic survival requirements. Living in a modern society shields most people from the more persistent existential suffering of our ancestors. Hunger, thirst and bodily breakdown are guaranteed. Peace and joy are optional, but what make life worth living. But it is seeing “suffering” for what it is - a mental state that we have the power to change - that makes living a peaceful and joyous life possible.
nicoburns 3y ago
> We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have experienced suffering Sure, but people rarely consider suicide due to momentary suffering, or even suffering for a few weeks or month. People typically consider suicide when they can't see an end to their suffering, and while this is sometimes irrational there are also many cases where it isn't.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  I've already pointed out that suffering is inherent to life for most of us, so it encompasses far more than "a few weeks or month[s]". You seem to be focusing on the aversion of physical or spiritual pain, but that's merely one sort of suffering which is not different in nature from the far subtler and less obvious suffering we all experience throughout our lives.
  - vaidhy 3y ago
    There is suffering and there is suffering. Even Buddha differentiated between the physical needs and the spiritual pain. We now know there is also mental pain and it is disingenuous to categorize all of them into a single category.
  - imtringued 3y ago
    Ok, good that I don't have to care about this type of suffering then.
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      What if I told you that you don't have to care about any kind of suffering, other than perhaps some very rare extremes of physical pain. That's the point!