18 ms·

This shouldnt be a problem due to the massive demand for office space in SF... I wonder at what point it will be cheaper to lease out an entire floor of a corp

This shouldnt be a problem due to the massive demand for office space in SF... I wonder at what point it will be cheaper to lease out an entire floor of a corporate office and throw an air matress in it then to rent a 3 bedroom house.

georgyo 3y ago
From the article > About 31% of downtown San Francisco’s office space is now available for lease or sublease. In early 2020, the vacancy rate was around 4% Demand is gone
- awaythrow483 3y ago
  Oh weird. Well, no biggie. Im sure SF will figure something out and it will all be fine
- jnwatson 3y ago
  Manhattan is at 22% now.
- ghaff 3y ago
  The situation in Boston isn't quite so dire but still record availability. What still puzzles me though is commuting traffic is as bad as ever. I assume some is reduced transit/rail schedules and usage but I wouldn't have thought that would account for the whole thing. (And a coworker was telling me it's the same thing in Phoenix which barely has a transit system.)
  - ilc 3y ago
    The T is SEVERELY fucked right now. Anyone who can drive will in Boston, at the moment.
    - Kon-Peki 3y ago
      What's going on with it? I have to be in Boston next week and was planning to use the T...
      - ghaff 3y ago
        There have been some major (overdue) maintenance projects that have caused service cutbacks on, I think, the red and orange lines in particular. I also saw just a couple days ago there were delays on my commuter rail line due to rail work. But the parent is being a bit hyperbolic. There is still a mostly functioning subway system. You can check the mbta.com website. As I look now there are delays but probably nothing too awful for someone in the city for a few days.
        Kon-Peki 3y ago
        Ugh, I will be needing to get from Revere Beach to Harvard Square, so Blue/Orange/Red was the plan. Perhaps Blue/Green/Red is better? I'd really prefer to avoid a ride share or rental car. Edit - it appears that it's less than a 10 minute walk from Govt Center (blue) to Park St (red). That's better than waiting for a train and taking for a single stop, right?
        ghaff 3y ago
        Just check the site.
        ghaff 3y ago
        Yes, within downtown Boston you're generally better off walking than taking short subway connections. Walk from Park Street to Government Center or any of the other short connections in that general area.
        zamnos 3y ago
        If you don't have any luggage or other encumbrances, it's a short walk. Follow the Google Maps directions https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Revere+Beach,+Revere,+MA+02151/Harvard+Square,+Cambridge,+MA/@42.390422,-71.1340194 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Revere+Beach,+Revere,+MA+021...
  - Andrex 3y ago
    Lived in Boston 2012-2018, I'm somehow both annoyed and comforted* the MBTA SILL hasn't gotten its shit together. * I wonder if there's a German word for this feeling?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Maybe it's like those stories about the loyal dog in Japan who still goes to the train station each day even though their master is long dead. All the laid off people still commute to an empty office and stand outside hoping for a job.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zdragnar 3y ago
Offices are built to different standards than residential use. The amount of effort to add new plumbing and wiring, to separate out utilities, etc is very seriously underestimated. There's an old office building near where my parents live that got converted to residential units. The contractor who did the conversion said it would have been cheaper to tear the building down and rebuild, but the owner felt there was some historic value to the building. Either way, the only way to make the transition feasible was to price the units at a luxury level. Mind you, this isn't even California, but the Midwest, where zoning, regulations and construction costs are more sane. I don't know how viable the same project would have been out there.
- bilbo0s 3y ago
  Conversions are always attractive in real estate because they are nearly always luxury. When I was active in that business, the main problem my bosses had Was rezoning. If they got over that hurdle, they always made a killing. Even before my time, conversions were enormously profitable. In NYC, long ago, converting warehouses and factory spaces to luxury lofts was enormous business. I don't think people should dismiss the amount of money to be made on conversions. The main drawback is that the areas the conversions are in become even less affordable. Which may be more than offset by affordability increases elsewhere in the city.
  - f1yght 3y ago
    It's much easier to convert older buildings than newer ones, just due to them being designed differently. You lay out structures different if you're designing a small building for PI style offices than you do if it's a huge open floor plan. It's just more difficult to break out those big spaces into smaller apartments while making sure people have enough light.
  - bsder 3y ago
    > converting warehouses and factory spaces Maybe not a warehouse, but a factory is a very different conversion than a gigantic open-floor office--especially if the building is old enough that it existed prior to electricity.
makestuff 3y ago
I can see the next "disrupting" startup now. Sublease a bunch of office space, skirt regulations and convert it into "apartments" that are more like hostels, and finally lease it out at a loss. Maybe that is why adam neumann raised 300m for a housing startup.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  Didn’t WeWork do some communal housing at some point? Honestly not a bad idea in this market
  - makestuff 3y ago
    Yeah it was called WeLive.
darth_avocado 3y ago
>massive demand for office space in SF There is no demand in SF. The whole commercial real estate sector is in a downward doomsday spiral, something that was easily predictable and preventable, but the city didn’t care. 30% of office space is vacant (not rented), a number that will only go up because the other 70% may be rented, but a lot of it isn’t actively utilized. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-office-vacancy/3204043/?amp=1 https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-office-v... In fact a lot of commercial real estate owners are realizing this and trying to minimize losses. Some selling entire buildings at 75% discounts. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/this-downtown-s-f-building-sold-bargain-price-18088504.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/this-downtown-s-f-bui... Anyone still holding a real estate lease at the ridiculous historical prices right now is only going to try and shed them even if they actually are using the space.
- awaythrow483 3y ago
  Its a joke. Sf is a basket case
RC_ITR 3y ago
Some interesting stray observations about this: 1) SF actually has a hard cap on the amount of new office space it can develop in a given year. [0] A lot of people pre-pandemic called it one of the worst NIMBY laws in America, but in retrospect, what a smart policy move. 2) Depending on how much you believe Apartments.com, there are c. 5k apartments available for rent in SF proper (a city of 800k) vs. c.31k in Dallas proper (a city of 1.3mn). 3) SF currently has 35mn square feet of vacant office space and needs to (by law) build 80k units in the coming decades. That's about 500sqft of vacant space per necessary unit... It will be interesting to see if SF can transform itself into the world's foremost 'people live here because they want to, the jobs are virtual' city. I certainly wouldn't bet on other cities slightly lower office vacancy rates as a long-term structural advantage. The only problem I see with the above is the amount of doom-and-gloom SF residents have bought into. [0]https://sfplanning.org/office-development-annual-limitation-program https://sfplanning.org/office-development-annual-limitation-...
- tristanb 3y ago
  I live here because I want to.
pyinstallwoes 3y ago
What demand for office space?
- awaythrow483 3y ago
  I know a guy who said he wants to work there
diebeforei485 3y ago
The city's zoning code won't allow this, nor do the mortgage terms of the office building, nor does the insurance contract for the building.

georgyo 3y ago

From the article > About 31% of downtown San Francisco’s office space is now available for lease or sublease. In early 2020, the vacancy rate was around 4% Demand is gone

awaythrow483 3y ago
Oh weird. Well, no biggie. Im sure SF will figure something out and it will all be fine
jnwatson 3y ago
Manhattan is at 22% now.
ghaff 3y ago
The situation in Boston isn't quite so dire but still record availability. What still puzzles me though is commuting traffic is as bad as ever. I assume some is reduced transit/rail schedules and usage but I wouldn't have thought that would account for the whole thing. (And a coworker was telling me it's the same thing in Phoenix which barely has a transit system.)
- ilc 3y ago
  The T is SEVERELY fucked right now. Anyone who can drive will in Boston, at the moment.
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    What's going on with it? I have to be in Boston next week and was planning to use the T...
    - ghaff 3y ago
      There have been some major (overdue) maintenance projects that have caused service cutbacks on, I think, the red and orange lines in particular. I also saw just a couple days ago there were delays on my commuter rail line due to rail work. But the parent is being a bit hyperbolic. There is still a mostly functioning subway system. You can check the mbta.com website. As I look now there are delays but probably nothing too awful for someone in the city for a few days.
      - Kon-Peki 3y ago
        Ugh, I will be needing to get from Revere Beach to Harvard Square, so Blue/Orange/Red was the plan. Perhaps Blue/Green/Red is better? I'd really prefer to avoid a ride share or rental car. Edit - it appears that it's less than a 10 minute walk from Govt Center (blue) to Park St (red). That's better than waiting for a train and taking for a single stop, right?
        ghaff 3y ago
        Just check the site.
        ghaff 3y ago
        Yes, within downtown Boston you're generally better off walking than taking short subway connections. Walk from Park Street to Government Center or any of the other short connections in that general area.
        zamnos 3y ago
        If you don't have any luggage or other encumbrances, it's a short walk. Follow the Google Maps directions https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Revere+Beach,+Revere,+MA+02151/Harvard+Square,+Cambridge,+MA/@42.390422,-71.1340194 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Revere+Beach,+Revere,+MA+021...
- Andrex 3y ago
  Lived in Boston 2012-2018, I'm somehow both annoyed and comforted* the MBTA SILL hasn't gotten its shit together. * I wonder if there's a German word for this feeling?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Maybe it's like those stories about the loyal dog in Japan who still goes to the train station each day even though their master is long dead. All the laid off people still commute to an empty office and stand outside hoping for a job.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

zdragnar 3y ago

Offices are built to different standards than residential use. The amount of effort to add new plumbing and wiring, to separate out utilities, etc is very seriously underestimated. There's an old office building near where my parents live that got converted to residential units. The contractor who did the conversion said it would have been cheaper to tear the building down and rebuild, but the owner felt there was some historic value to the building. Either way, the only way to make the transition feasible was to price the units at a luxury level. Mind you, this isn't even California, but the Midwest, where zoning, regulations and construction costs are more sane. I don't know how viable the same project would have been out there.

bilbo0s 3y ago
Conversions are always attractive in real estate because they are nearly always luxury. When I was active in that business, the main problem my bosses had Was rezoning. If they got over that hurdle, they always made a killing. Even before my time, conversions were enormously profitable. In NYC, long ago, converting warehouses and factory spaces to luxury lofts was enormous business. I don't think people should dismiss the amount of money to be made on conversions. The main drawback is that the areas the conversions are in become even less affordable. Which may be more than offset by affordability increases elsewhere in the city.
- f1yght 3y ago
  It's much easier to convert older buildings than newer ones, just due to them being designed differently. You lay out structures different if you're designing a small building for PI style offices than you do if it's a huge open floor plan. It's just more difficult to break out those big spaces into smaller apartments while making sure people have enough light.
- bsder 3y ago
  > converting warehouses and factory spaces Maybe not a warehouse, but a factory is a very different conversion than a gigantic open-floor office--especially if the building is old enough that it existed prior to electricity.

makestuff 3y ago

I can see the next "disrupting" startup now. Sublease a bunch of office space, skirt regulations and convert it into "apartments" that are more like hostels, and finally lease it out at a loss. Maybe that is why adam neumann raised 300m for a housing startup.

coffeebeqn 3y ago
Didn’t WeWork do some communal housing at some point? Honestly not a bad idea in this market
- makestuff 3y ago
  Yeah it was called WeLive.

darth_avocado 3y ago

>massive demand for office space in SF There is no demand in SF. The whole commercial real estate sector is in a downward doomsday spiral, something that was easily predictable and preventable, but the city didn’t care. 30% of office space is vacant (not rented), a number that will only go up because the other 70% may be rented, but a lot of it isn’t actively utilized. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-office-vacancy/3204043/?amp=1 https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco-office-v... In fact a lot of commercial real estate owners are realizing this and trying to minimize losses. Some selling entire buildings at 75% discounts. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/this-downtown-s-f-building-sold-bargain-price-18088504.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/this-downtown-s-f-bui... Anyone still holding a real estate lease at the ridiculous historical prices right now is only going to try and shed them even if they actually are using the space.

awaythrow483 3y ago
Its a joke. Sf is a basket case

RC_ITR 3y ago

Some interesting stray observations about this: 1) SF actually has a hard cap on the amount of new office space it can develop in a given year. [0] A lot of people pre-pandemic called it one of the worst NIMBY laws in America, but in retrospect, what a smart policy move. 2) Depending on how much you believe Apartments.com, there are c. 5k apartments available for rent in SF proper (a city of 800k) vs. c.31k in Dallas proper (a city of 1.3mn). 3) SF currently has 35mn square feet of vacant office space and needs to (by law) build 80k units in the coming decades. That's about 500sqft of vacant space per necessary unit... It will be interesting to see if SF can transform itself into the world's foremost 'people live here because they want to, the jobs are virtual' city. I certainly wouldn't bet on other cities slightly lower office vacancy rates as a long-term structural advantage. The only problem I see with the above is the amount of doom-and-gloom SF residents have bought into. [0]https://sfplanning.org/office-development-annual-limitation-program https://sfplanning.org/office-development-annual-limitation-...

tristanb 3y ago
I live here because I want to.

pyinstallwoes 3y ago

What demand for office space?

awaythrow483 3y ago
I know a guy who said he wants to work there

diebeforei485 3y ago

The city's zoning code won't allow this, nor do the mortgage terms of the office building, nor does the insurance contract for the building.