6 ms·

Rafael’s Iron Dome

15 points by tomerbd 3y ago

jagtstronaut 3y ago
I understand that this is a hyper complex geopolitical problem, but could someone who is a staunch Palestine supporter explain to me why Israel shouldn't be retaliating against these strikes? Or what makes these 2500+ attacks okay? Edit: I am genuinely curious. Grew up in a conservative family that were staunch Israel supporters, and I have never fully grasped both side's points.
- potatototoo99 3y ago
  They can retaliate of course, they just do not have the moral highground to complain about them. They occupied and installed a racist apartheid system in Palestine that continues to this day. It's like complaining that Ukraine defends itself from Russia in unconventional or unexpected ways: war doesn't have to be symmetric.
  - sgregnt 3y ago
    The attacks from Gaza towards Israel are targeted at civilian infra.
    - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
      I mean it's basically the same for both sides...
      - Fatnino 3y ago
        The attacks from Gaza are targeted at civilians with the intention of killing civilians. They are also launched from civilian areas inside Gaza. The Israeli retaliations are targeted at the militants with the intention of killing the militants. The strikes are incredibly surgical and despite needing to happen in civilian areas usually only kill the targeted militants. But not always. Still much much better than any other military that's tried to do surgical strikes in civilian areas.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - borghildhedda 3y ago
    On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.
- hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
  Not a staunch Palestine supporter but I think both are OK. The Palestine is OK to retaliate against Israel's taking their land and air striking and Israel is OK to retaliate too. It's basically a mess that no one knows how to solve, and from my understanding can only be solved whence one side (or both sides) is significantly weakened. Let them sort out...
- lorion 3y ago
  I'm not a staunch Palestine supporter, but I'd say that most of those retaliations take form of collective punishment.
  - sgregnt 3y ago
    From Israel side this is usually an attempt at a pinpointed strike on terrorist infra. Not clear which part is a collective retaliation
    - spicebox 3y ago
      "It is an affront to justice and the rule of law to see that such methods continue to be used in the 21st century and that Palestinians collectively continue to be punished for the actions of a few," said Michael Lynk, the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/07/israels-collective-punishment-palestinians-illegal-and-affront-justice-un https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/07/israels-coll...
- photochemsyn 3y ago
  I'm not invested in either side, but the fundamental issue is that the Gaza zone is neither an independent state nor a province of 'democratic' Israel, so either (1) Israel grants all Gaza residents citizenship status and allows them to vote in Israeli national elections or (2) Gaza becomes an independent country with its own ports and control of its borders. Israel appears fundamentally opposed to both solutions, for various reasons (but this also undermines Israel's claim to 'democratic governance'). As it stands today, Gaza is just an open air prison controlled by Israel, whose and Gaza residents have no legal rights (e.g. innocent victims of Israeli bombings can hardly sue the Israeli government in Israeli courts for damages, etc.). The fact that both sides in the conflict have extremist religious fundamentalists in their ranks calling for genocide of the opposition doesn't help matters, either - but this is a problem across the entire Middle East, which looks a bit like medieval/feudal Europe of 300 years ago in that respect.
  - sgregnt 3y ago
    Israel and Egypt. Gaza has border with both.
- spicebox 3y ago
  I’ll take a stab at it: I don’t think people are saying Israel shouldn’t defend themselves, it’s more about why the strikes are happening in the first place. It’s like if Russia built a giant defense system to keep out Ukrainian missiles. The problem isn’t that they’re defending themselves it’s what they’re doing to provoke it. As for why the attacks are happening, like you said it s a very complicated issue. But in essence Israel has kicked a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and illegally annexed their land, in violation of international law. They’ve also continued to violate the human rights of the Palestinians that remain. If you want to read more: UN: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722 Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    > It’s like if Russia built a giant defense system to keep out Ukrainian missiles. This is a bad analogy, because Ukraine doesn't shoot missiles into Russia, but Gaza shoots missiles into Israel all the time.
    - spicebox 3y ago
      I guess a better analogy would be the Germans complaining about the British bombing them in WWII. (Although Russia has claimed that Ukraine has staged drone attacks in Russia: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/europe/russia-ukraine-missiles-kyiv-zaporizhzhia-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/europe/russia-ukraine-mis...)
      - sgregnt 3y ago
        Yeah, I would narrow this down Germans complaining for allies purposefully bombing a civilian infra. But present day standars this is a war crime.
    - rich_sasha 3y ago
      Gaza Strip didn't exist pre-1940s and no one was shooting from it. I wholeheartedly condemn Palestinian terrorism, and at the same time see that Israel's actions are a key, unfair cause of it.
- throwaway-cAJP3 3y ago
  Throwaway account as my main is not suitable for this discussion. I'm not a staunch supporter of anyone. But consider that since the foundation of the modern State of Israel, the Palestinian people have been dispossessed of their ancestral land, violently and forcibly removed from their homes, villages and farms, and on a racial basis denied proper political engagement in the nation state that was created in their midst. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba for more context. You may not be aware that this took place, as in the US (and other western nations) this history is rarely taught. I wouldn't frame it as "why Israel shouldn't be retaliating" but rather, why you would expect any people to peaceably accept such a state of affairs without fighting back. I don't think anyone would be surprised at Israel retaliating against strikes from the Palestinian territories.
- uoaei 3y ago
  Your question is based on a false dichotomy: that Palestine supporters think any of those things. As you say, the problem is complex. Iron Dome works as intended, but would not be necessary if Israel wasn't annexing land that people already live on and consider home. That's what the Palestinians are mad about and what continues to radicalize them. If you stop doing the things Palestinians are mad about, there will be far fewer mad people and far fewer attacks, opening up a path to peace. Iron Dome is a symptom of the problem. Iron Dome is used to continue and defend the encroachment onto Palestinian land. The retaliation against Palestinians (often those who have nothing to do with attacks) using primarily 5.56 rounds supplied by US/NATO (likely paid for by your taxes if you speak English!), rockets sent into private homes, or straight up billy clubs, is wildly imbalanced. But propaganda arms like .il websites and "just asking questions" guys in the comment sections of social media websites perpetuate the notion that there is somehow some balance that is reached only by deploying Iron Dome batteries. Media critics call this both-sides-ism and the news media outlets use it incessantly to muddy the waters on complex problems by drawing false dichotomies just as you have.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    > If you stop doing the things Palestinians are mad about, there will be far fewer mad people and far fewer attacks Isn't this like telling a battered woman "if you stop doing the things your husband gets mad about, there will be far fewer beatings"?
    - spicebox 3y ago
      No because the reason the Palestinians are mad is because Israel is violating international law. It’s like telling the husband if he stops beating his wife he’ll stop getting arrested
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      Only if the "battered woman" in question has moved into the man's home uninvited, taken away his keys, set up checkpoints at the front door and the door between the living room and the kitchen, and invited her friends from all over the world to move in, bringing guns.
- aiProgMach 3y ago
  It's not really complex or anything, what make this issue looks "hyper complex" is that the aggressor in this case is fully supported by the "Western" bloc with it's powerful media and it's hard and soft power, but morally it's a simple issue. When a stealer steal your home and kill your parents and children this makes them criminal for each moment they live in that house and for each breathe they take from the air of your home. The issue is really simple, just watch this video of Jacob [1] (American zionist settler) telling the real owner of the house "If I didn't steal it someone else will", these people are committing their crimes in full awareness and without a shred of empathy or morality or anything, really. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8
- karmakurtisaani 3y ago
  I'll give another perspective from the comments already made: in this conflict you have as sides one technologically very advanced rich, democratic Western-aligned country against poor, badly organized oppressed people who are not even allowed to have a state. To me it's absolutely clear from which side we should be expecting constructive steps towards peace - and the fact that we're not seeing them says enough.
uoaei 3y ago
How much damage on average (measured in dollars) is caused if Iron Dome fails to intercept?
- HappyPanacea 3y ago
  In the last round of ballistic excitement (called "Operation Shield and Arrow" by the Israelis), according to the Hebrew Wikipedia, 460 rockets had been shot into Israeli residential areas, of those 439 were intercepted and 21 weren't. Those 21 rockets killed 2 and injured 7 directly due to shrapnel and blast. For economic damage I couldn't find a report, but one of the deaths probably made a 3 story building in Rehovot condemned due to structural reasons. The costs of 3 bedrooms apartment in Rehovot appears to be around 2.2 mil ILS. It looks like there is at least 2 apartments per story. So around 13.2 mil ILS to find a new home for everyone. Therefor If these are representative damage of typical damage, so per rocket we get 0.1 deaths, 0.3 injury and 104k ILS.
  - dgrin91 3y ago
    Other forms of economic damage that should be included: * People going to shelters after air alarms in the middle of work day * Tourism impacts * Stress/mental health * Opportunity cost of having personnel man missile defense instead of other stuff.

15 points by tomerbd 3y ago

I understand that this is a hyper complex geopolitical problem, but could someone who is a staunch Palestine supporter explain to me why Israel shouldn't be retaliating against these strikes? Or what makes these 2500+ attacks okay? Edit: I am genuinely curious. Grew up in a conservative family that were staunch Israel supporters, and I have never fully grasped both side's points.

potatototoo99 3y ago
They can retaliate of course, they just do not have the moral highground to complain about them. They occupied and installed a racist apartheid system in Palestine that continues to this day. It's like complaining that Ukraine defends itself from Russia in unconventional or unexpected ways: war doesn't have to be symmetric.
- sgregnt 3y ago
  The attacks from Gaza towards Israel are targeted at civilian infra.
  - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
    I mean it's basically the same for both sides...
    - Fatnino 3y ago
      The attacks from Gaza are targeted at civilians with the intention of killing civilians. They are also launched from civilian areas inside Gaza. The Israeli retaliations are targeted at the militants with the intention of killing the militants. The strikes are incredibly surgical and despite needing to happen in civilian areas usually only kill the targeted militants. But not always. Still much much better than any other military that's tried to do surgical strikes in civilian areas.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- borghildhedda 3y ago
  On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.
hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
Not a staunch Palestine supporter but I think both are OK. The Palestine is OK to retaliate against Israel's taking their land and air striking and Israel is OK to retaliate too. It's basically a mess that no one knows how to solve, and from my understanding can only be solved whence one side (or both sides) is significantly weakened. Let them sort out...
lorion 3y ago
I'm not a staunch Palestine supporter, but I'd say that most of those retaliations take form of collective punishment.
- sgregnt 3y ago
  From Israel side this is usually an attempt at a pinpointed strike on terrorist infra. Not clear which part is a collective retaliation
  - spicebox 3y ago
    "It is an affront to justice and the rule of law to see that such methods continue to be used in the 21st century and that Palestinians collectively continue to be punished for the actions of a few," said Michael Lynk, the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/07/israels-collective-punishment-palestinians-illegal-and-affront-justice-un https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/07/israels-coll...
photochemsyn 3y ago
I'm not invested in either side, but the fundamental issue is that the Gaza zone is neither an independent state nor a province of 'democratic' Israel, so either (1) Israel grants all Gaza residents citizenship status and allows them to vote in Israeli national elections or (2) Gaza becomes an independent country with its own ports and control of its borders. Israel appears fundamentally opposed to both solutions, for various reasons (but this also undermines Israel's claim to 'democratic governance'). As it stands today, Gaza is just an open air prison controlled by Israel, whose and Gaza residents have no legal rights (e.g. innocent victims of Israeli bombings can hardly sue the Israeli government in Israeli courts for damages, etc.). The fact that both sides in the conflict have extremist religious fundamentalists in their ranks calling for genocide of the opposition doesn't help matters, either - but this is a problem across the entire Middle East, which looks a bit like medieval/feudal Europe of 300 years ago in that respect.
- sgregnt 3y ago
  Israel and Egypt. Gaza has border with both.
spicebox 3y ago
I’ll take a stab at it: I don’t think people are saying Israel shouldn’t defend themselves, it’s more about why the strikes are happening in the first place. It’s like if Russia built a giant defense system to keep out Ukrainian missiles. The problem isn’t that they’re defending themselves it’s what they’re doing to provoke it. As for why the attacks are happening, like you said it s a very complicated issue. But in essence Israel has kicked a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and illegally annexed their land, in violation of international law. They’ve also continued to violate the human rights of the Palestinians that remain. If you want to read more: UN: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722 Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > It’s like if Russia built a giant defense system to keep out Ukrainian missiles. This is a bad analogy, because Ukraine doesn't shoot missiles into Russia, but Gaza shoots missiles into Israel all the time.
  - spicebox 3y ago
    I guess a better analogy would be the Germans complaining about the British bombing them in WWII. (Although Russia has claimed that Ukraine has staged drone attacks in Russia: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/europe/russia-ukraine-missiles-kyiv-zaporizhzhia-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/europe/russia-ukraine-mis...)
    - sgregnt 3y ago
      Yeah, I would narrow this down Germans complaining for allies purposefully bombing a civilian infra. But present day standars this is a war crime.
  - rich_sasha 3y ago
    Gaza Strip didn't exist pre-1940s and no one was shooting from it. I wholeheartedly condemn Palestinian terrorism, and at the same time see that Israel's actions are a key, unfair cause of it.
throwaway-cAJP3 3y ago
Throwaway account as my main is not suitable for this discussion. I'm not a staunch supporter of anyone. But consider that since the foundation of the modern State of Israel, the Palestinian people have been dispossessed of their ancestral land, violently and forcibly removed from their homes, villages and farms, and on a racial basis denied proper political engagement in the nation state that was created in their midst. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba for more context. You may not be aware that this took place, as in the US (and other western nations) this history is rarely taught. I wouldn't frame it as "why Israel shouldn't be retaliating" but rather, why you would expect any people to peaceably accept such a state of affairs without fighting back. I don't think anyone would be surprised at Israel retaliating against strikes from the Palestinian territories.
uoaei 3y ago
Your question is based on a false dichotomy: that Palestine supporters think any of those things. As you say, the problem is complex. Iron Dome works as intended, but would not be necessary if Israel wasn't annexing land that people already live on and consider home. That's what the Palestinians are mad about and what continues to radicalize them. If you stop doing the things Palestinians are mad about, there will be far fewer mad people and far fewer attacks, opening up a path to peace. Iron Dome is a symptom of the problem. Iron Dome is used to continue and defend the encroachment onto Palestinian land. The retaliation against Palestinians (often those who have nothing to do with attacks) using primarily 5.56 rounds supplied by US/NATO (likely paid for by your taxes if you speak English!), rockets sent into private homes, or straight up billy clubs, is wildly imbalanced. But propaganda arms like .il websites and "just asking questions" guys in the comment sections of social media websites perpetuate the notion that there is somehow some balance that is reached only by deploying Iron Dome batteries. Media critics call this both-sides-ism and the news media outlets use it incessantly to muddy the waters on complex problems by drawing false dichotomies just as you have.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > If you stop doing the things Palestinians are mad about, there will be far fewer mad people and far fewer attacks Isn't this like telling a battered woman "if you stop doing the things your husband gets mad about, there will be far fewer beatings"?
  - spicebox 3y ago
    No because the reason the Palestinians are mad is because Israel is violating international law. It’s like telling the husband if he stops beating his wife he’ll stop getting arrested
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    Only if the "battered woman" in question has moved into the man's home uninvited, taken away his keys, set up checkpoints at the front door and the door between the living room and the kitchen, and invited her friends from all over the world to move in, bringing guns.
aiProgMach 3y ago
It's not really complex or anything, what make this issue looks "hyper complex" is that the aggressor in this case is fully supported by the "Western" bloc with it's powerful media and it's hard and soft power, but morally it's a simple issue. When a stealer steal your home and kill your parents and children this makes them criminal for each moment they live in that house and for each breathe they take from the air of your home. The issue is really simple, just watch this video of Jacob [1] (American zionist settler) telling the real owner of the house "If I didn't steal it someone else will", these people are committing their crimes in full awareness and without a shred of empathy or morality or anything, really. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8
karmakurtisaani 3y ago
I'll give another perspective from the comments already made: in this conflict you have as sides one technologically very advanced rich, democratic Western-aligned country against poor, badly organized oppressed people who are not even allowed to have a state. To me it's absolutely clear from which side we should be expecting constructive steps towards peace - and the fact that we're not seeing them says enough.

uoaei 3y ago

How much damage on average (measured in dollars) is caused if Iron Dome fails to intercept?

HappyPanacea 3y ago
In the last round of ballistic excitement (called "Operation Shield and Arrow" by the Israelis), according to the Hebrew Wikipedia, 460 rockets had been shot into Israeli residential areas, of those 439 were intercepted and 21 weren't. Those 21 rockets killed 2 and injured 7 directly due to shrapnel and blast. For economic damage I couldn't find a report, but one of the deaths probably made a 3 story building in Rehovot condemned due to structural reasons. The costs of 3 bedrooms apartment in Rehovot appears to be around 2.2 mil ILS. It looks like there is at least 2 apartments per story. So around 13.2 mil ILS to find a new home for everyone. Therefor If these are representative damage of typical damage, so per rocket we get 0.1 deaths, 0.3 injury and 104k ILS.
- dgrin91 3y ago
  Other forms of economic damage that should be included: * People going to shelters after air alarms in the middle of work day * Tourism impacts * Stress/mental health * Opportunity cost of having personnel man missile defense instead of other stuff.