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OpenAI have a good business model here, though possibly a bit unethical. Shopify (who recently laid me off but I still speak highly of) locked down the public
by mabbo 3y ago
OpenAI have a good business model here, though possibly a bit unethical.
Shopify (who recently laid me off but I still speak highly of) locked down the public access to ChatGPT's website. But you could use Shopify's internal tool (built using https://github.com/mckaywrigley/chatbot-ui https://github.com/mckaywrigley/chatbot-ui) to access the APIs, with access to GPT4. And it was great!
So look at this from OpenAI's perspective. They could put up a big banner saying "Hey everyone, we use everything you tell ChatGPT to train it to be smarter. Please don't tell it anything confidential!". And then also say "By the way, we have private API access that doesn't use anything you say as training inputs- maybe your company would prefer that?"
The louder they shout those two things, the more businesses will line up to pay them.
And the reason they can do this: they've built a brilliant product that everyone wants to use, everyone is going to use.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nmlrc 3y agoWhy would anyone trust such proclamations? Besides, they already had a data leak.
- sebzim4500 3y agoThey aren't trusting OpenAI. They are purchasing through Azure, and given most of these companies probably already trust Microsoft with a ton of data, this feels like much less of a leap.
- blibble 3y ago> and given most of these companies probably already trust Microsoft with a ton of data I don't think Apple is one of them
- spacebanana7 3y agoAFAIK some azure services can be run on premises if you're a big enough customer. Don't think GPT APIs are available yet but might in theory be possible in the future. Self hosting a model the size of GPT4 would be insanely difficult and expensive. but might be a workable solution for data sensitive enterprises like Apple, JPM and government orgs.
- jefftk 3y agoThat would be very dangerous for OpenAI to agree to: high risk of it all getting leaked. I can't think of any enterprise software you might run on premises that has leaking incentives anywhere near as high.
- coredog64 3y agoMicrosoft has had two different iterations of on-prem Azure. The TL;DR is that you’d buy a full rack of hardware from them and you could manage it using Azure front end. The first iteration was a miserable failure. The second was a heavy lift to install: Previous employer was an Azure customer and actually bought the hardware. It then took months to get it installed and working, at which point the appetite for that capability was gone.
- whimsicalism 3y agoI can practically guarantee you GPT will never be available through such a scheme.
- spacebanana7 3y agoWhy? I’m genuinely curious. How is running GPT on Prem any different than other proprietary software like Oracle DBs or even Windows server. When it gets leaked, they can use licences/copyright to prevent anyone from using it to compete with them.
- whimsicalism 3y ago1. The value in proprietary software largely lies in the source code, which is not available in on-premises, you are talking about compiled binaries. There is no such thing as "compiled binaries" for neural network weights. 2. License/copyright - Even in the best possible case, there are plenty of jurisdictions that don't care about US copyright and would love to get a hand on those weights. 3. We haven't seen copyright cases around model weights before. If I managed to exfiltrate OpenAIs model weights, I would continue training for a few iterations and then I think it would be quite difficult to prove that I actually have the same model as OpenAI. This is untested, why would they risk it. 4. Running these models requires a ton of resources, vastly beyond the typical onprem deployment - why would Azure invest in making this possible when it really could only impact a very small percentage of companies? The weights are OAIs lifeblood, I imagine they are very protective of them.
- ddmma 3y agoiCloud is hosted in Azure
- larkost 3y agoI believe that iCloud is hosted in a number of cloud vendors, and on Apple's own servers as well. It is both a large (read: rambling as well as big) endeavor, and one they keep flexible so they have a good negotiating position to keep down vendor costs.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deanc 3y agoAgree. It’s incredibly ambiguous and difficult and spread out across the site exactly how privacy addressed across their product offering. Trying to explain to management what’s ok and what isn’t and what are the risks - in this space - is quite a challenge without clear commitments and documentation.
- lucraft 3y agoOn the main ChatGPT website there's already an option in settings to disallow use of anything you say in chat for training.
- Filligree 3y agoBut this also disables history, making it a fair bit less useful.
- wfhBrian 3y agoIt also disables their plugins (browsing, code interpreter, etc.)
- tomashubelbauer 3y agoThis is so stupid. I just checked and yeah, that's why Browsing wasn't available for me! I wish their UI wasn't such a mess and it would have told me. I disabled history because I find it annoying that it sticks around and I don't care to use it. I didn't expect this would prevent me from seeing the Browsing plugin. Had I known I wouldn't have disabled it in the first place. Definitely a facepalm moment.
- behnamoh 3y agoI think that’s intentional. They’re trying to discourage you from opting out.
- rmorey 3y agofeels like kind of a fair tradeoff
- m348e912 3y agoIt's interesting you mention Shopify and how they use chatgpt. Yesterday the founder and CEO of Shopify, Tobias Lütke, sat down for an interview with Sam Altman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRIWgbvouEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRIWgbvouEw
- lisrjflksdjfi 3y agoOh that is pretty much their monetization strategy. They still on the hype step tho. As soon as they have enough mass, they will do exactly what you say. For now they are just selling individually to CISO's, so they can pay a higher cost while looking savvy to the CEO.
- EGreg 3y agoThe trouble is, I don’t trust their “provate API access” to not mine the data surreptitiously any more than I trusted Facebook to not exfiltrate my video and audio and my messages and…
- wodenokoto 3y agoMicrosoft enters the chat. They'll host a managed OpenAI model in Azure for you.
- EGreg 3y agoI may trust that slightly more. Or Amazon’s bedrock. Or Github. But wait, do I see copyrighted code on GitHub Copilot, which is owned by Microsoft? My background is in building distributed systems for self-sovereign ownership and make them easy to use and available to everyone. Like https://qbix.com https://qbix.com and https://intercoin.org https://intercoin.org You should have the software infrastructure of Facebook and Twitter but choose where to host it. In addition, I prefer Wordpress, Discourse forums, GitLab to GitHub, Redmine to FogBugz, etc. When it comes to YOUR art, your code, your content, your relationships, you should be able to run it on your own servers. Any analysis of your data should be done locally, with local models. You should have the open source software and the weights, and you should be able to choose which hosting company to trust, or host on-prem. Villages should be able to do this without needing server farms in California. This should be obvious stuff. But we the people need the software! But hey, the documentation and teasers and trailers should go on YouTube and TikTok. It isn’t even about them scraping all your content and training on it. It’s about not giving Twitter all your followers and YouTube all your hours of video production and content so they can give you pennies for being “an influencer”. Own your community! Someone had to build it, and in the Web2 space nearly everyone sold out to venture capitalists. I was sure that in the 12 years we built Qbix and 5 years of Intercoin someone would make a better open source alternative to Big Tech and Big Finance. Nope. They all either sold out, or have a solution that doesn’t compete on features (eg Mastodon). I would say the closest is Matrix!
- mrtranscendence 3y ago
- quickthrower2 3y agoOpenAI ain’t desperate for cash. It is a pure strategy position. If they wanted another 10bil they’d have to hire a bouncer for the queue. It is like the idealized wet dream startup.
- itsoktocry 3y ago>OpenAI ain’t desperate for cash. They lost over $500M last year, and are looking to raise, potentially, $100B. From that, how do you not conclude that they need cash, and lots of it? Do you think selling equity and taking on debt are forms of revenue?
- kgermino 3y agoI think you two are looking at it differently. GP seems to be saying that they don't/won't have trouble raising cash while you seem to be saying that they need to raise money. I think both are true. Their burn is massive so they need to raise more money, but there's so much excitement they won't have any problem doing so
- pjc50 3y ago> Do you think selling equity and taking on debt are forms of revenue? For the purposes of executive payout, yes? Sure, maybe eventually you have to deliver revenue, but what people really care about is stock price. (Also, $100B is a huge market-distorting amount of money, roughly the national debt of Sweden; what are they going to do with that? How much will they spend on GPUs and energy?)
- samwillis 3y agoThats around the cost of buying 7 million A100s and running them for three years => AGI?
- testplzignore 3y agoOr the cost of running 100 Libraries of Congress for one year. Or the GDP of two Rhode Islands.
- xwdv 3y agoPeople will want to use it but few will want to pay for it. OpenAI needs to find a way to turn users into the real product.
- behnamoh 3y agoIsn’t this proof that Apple is NOT working on an equivalent ChatGPT? Else, they’d be using their own LLM instead of cgpt.
- FemmeAndroid 3y agoI don’t know it is clear that this is proof. Apple is notorious for keeping people out of the loop late I to a product’s lifecycle. That’s not to say I think they’re making an equivalent, just that I doubt many of the employees looking to use ChatGPT would have access to their internal LLM even if it was excellent. It might be good evidence that they won’t be announcing one at WWDC in a couple weeks, since I can imagine they might roll something like that out internally a couple of weeks before launch, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
- todd3834 3y agoWhen I worked at Apple they would have never rolled something out internally that they have yet to release. Sometimes they invite you to test something in a very controlled environment but they would not just give access outside of the controlled setting. Probably in person testing. Surrender your phone etc…
- samstave 3y agoI had friends who worked on the initial iphone design, supply chain, software etc.. We would go to lunch fairly frequently - and jeasus those guys were all extremely honorable of their NDA/secrecy - it was impressive. One of the guys moved to google and worked on some of their first mainboard designs - which was secret at the timew, and I only found out about it when I went to meet him for lunch and I saw a mainboard under his desk and said "ooh whats that!" he freaked out and we got out of there quick.... Some of the hardware at FB in ~2012/13 they designed was really awesome.... I always wonder what happens to these closed HW systems as they uplift/replace them over time. I am sure they are destroyed. Which sucks for many reasons. --- When we built Lucas' presidio campus and converged their DCs to that campus they through out tons of huge SGI boxes - and I was free to take some - but I didnt have any place to put it at the time - and I wish I would have figured that out more earnestly, as SGI always had beautiful cabinets.
- electroly 3y agoRelated: OpenAI announced (kinda hidden in a recent blog post) that they are working on a ChatGPT Business subscription so businesses can get this without writing their own UI. I expect it to be popular. https://openai.com/blog/new-ways-to-manage-your-data-in-chatgpt https://openai.com/blog/new-ways-to-manage-your-data-in-chat... > We are also working on a new ChatGPT Business subscription for professionals who need more control over their data as well as enterprises seeking to manage their end users. ChatGPT Business will follow our API’s data usage policies, which means that end users’ data won’t be used to train our models by default.
- dr_dshiv 3y agoAre there companies that offer web UI access to GPT4/Claude with privacy and security assurances that make it easy to provide LLM access to teams?
- Dwedit 3y agoHow can you tell if a third party is actually doing what they are claiming they are doing? You can't. You can only observe their overt and visible behavior, not their covert behavior.
- richm44 3y agoYou can't get perfection, but you can do things like ask for them to document the controls they implement and to evidence that they have operated them appropriately via an audit like SOC2.
- hyddbhxd 3y agoThankfully we have contact law. Imagine if nobody did business with anyone else unless they had a zero trust system set up.
- cowsup 3y agoIf OpenAI promises to use your data one way — and, in fact, upsells you on that promise — and then gets caught using it another way, that’s a huge lawsuit, not to mention immediate violation of EU privacy laws. Given the size of OpenAI, the consequences they’d face would be detrimental to their operation, and the reward for the whistleblower would be well worth it to reveal what’s going on.
- bboygravity 3y agoNot true. Such a reveal already happened ages ago with regular old non-AI huge US tech companies. It was revealed they leak data (on an unlimited scale, actively, secretly, knowingly and purposefully without admitting it). The data leaking was then further legalized by (almost) all Western governments and extended from secret services to other services (police, army, etc). I'm talking about Snowden.
- andrepd 3y agoIs it? Whistleblowers rarely avoid major headaches, let alone get some form of reward for their public service. And we have tons of examples of companies collecting, selling, or leaking private data illegally, with zero or negligible consequences. You're saying how things should be, not how they are.
- nomel 3y ago> we have private API access that doesn't use anything you say as training inputs- maybe your company would prefer that?" This isn't enough for many companies, since the data still goes out the door. They would have to set up on site hosting to appease security minded orgs. Or, maybe that's what you mean.
- yreg 3y agoOpenAI already offers private ChatGPT instances hosted on Azure. I know of a bank who is paranoid enough to use a self hosted on-premise GitHub instance and they went with the private (off-premise) ChatGPT instance. They don't use it for code/confidential data though.
- nomel 3y ago> OpenAI already offers private ChatGPT instances hosted on Azure. > They don't use it for code/confidential data though. Yes, private isn't enough. They need to offer self hosted, for these types of clients. I imagine most orgs who need self hosted would already have a datacenter to run it in.
- quadcore 3y agoIt's so brilliant. As a layback person, I wonder how much more of transformers they went, like is it transformers that are brilliant or gpt (essentially)? Both i suppose but then is there a big distance between the two i wonder.
- dgellow 3y agoNote that you can disable ChatGPT training : https://help.openai.com/en/articles/7730893-data-controls-faq https://help.openai.com/en/articles/7730893-data-controls-fa.... It’s a simple toggle in your settings. > How does OpenAI use my personal data? Our large language models are trained on a broad corpus of text that includes publicly available content, licensed content, and content generated by human reviewers. We don’t use data for selling our services, advertising, or building profiles of people—we use data to make our models more helpful for people. ChatGPT, for instance, improves by further training on the conversations people have with it, unless you choose to disable training.
- IAmNotACellist 3y agoThat'd fit in nicely with the other two things they shout: "AI IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND THREATENS TO KILL US ALL." "But sign up here, guy, your $22/mo. means this AI is now safe and contained :)"
- paulhodge 3y ago> And then also say "By the way, we have private API access that doesn't use anything you say as training inputs- maybe your company would prefer that?" They already say that anything submitted through the API is not used for training. https://openai.com/policies/api-data-usage-policies https://openai.com/policies/api-data-usage-policies