3 ms·

There’s a whole bunch of people who live in dense cities who have seemingly forgotten about the rest of the country and are totally delusional on this issue. “

by api 3y ago

There’s a whole bunch of people who live in dense cities who have seemingly forgotten about the rest of the country and are totally delusional on this issue. “We don’t even need EVs! We should decarbonize by just building trains!” What planet are these people on? I love walkable cities and towns and I think we should build more urban real estate like this. I also think we should in fact build more transit where density makes it make sense. There is absolutely zero chance that the suburbs or rural living are going away. There are also thousands of small to medium sized towns that while they could be made more walkable are too small for trains and people need to get between them. The amount of rail you’d have to build to connect all these and the number of trains you’d have to run would be astronomical. You’d have to run lots of empty trains to make sure there was continuous service too. People are not going to wait 6 hours in the country to go to the next town over.

tetha 3y ago
> I love walkable cities and towns and I think we should build more urban real estate like this. I also think we should in fact build more transit where density makes it make sense. That's largely how it looks e.g. in Hamburg and around Hamburg. Inside of Hamburg, some people own cars for transportation or family reasons, but many people inside of Hamburg don't own cars and rent transportation as necessary, since they don't even need it often. Once you get out of Hamburg into the more rural and village-y germany, cars and bicycles are becoming much more necessary, because the next store could easily be a 20 minute car drive away. This tends to be worse in the US. However, if people need to get into Hamburg, many people tend to drive to a subway station nearby of the collector subways, park there and use transit to get into Hamburg, because the traffic can be a nightmare. It's by no means perfect, since getting up from south of the Elbe is still a bit of a hassle with the public transit, but it works. In my book, that's the most useful approach to take.
- soco 3y ago
  I'm in a small village and use the car exactly once a week for driving groceries around, otherwise the important local points are perfectly reachable by jumping in the bus. Also I'll drive once a month for some longer trip: bigger shopping, or leisure, or even job related. For these I can't use (bulk items) or don't need (too many switches) public transportation. For those about to get to Hamburg I think the next step (also applicable here in Switzerland) could be syncing a bit better between highway exits and parkings and public transportation between these and the city center - currently usable but definitely not ideal.
paulgb 3y ago
I don’t think anyone serious expects existing suburbs to be torn down in a generation, the argument that car-free folks make is that we should stop forcing new growth to sprawl outside cities by: 1. Not limiting density in cities through red tape (parking requirements, multi-year review processes, etc.) 2. Not forcing urbanites to subsidize suburbanite’s lifestyles, which are more expensive[1] The train argument I typically see is that it should be cheaper to take the train between city pairs in the northeast (NYC-Boston, NYC-DC) than it is to fly, which it currently often is not. There are also a lot of ways the status quo is subtly baked into the system. e.g. employers can offer employees pre-tax money to pay for parking to commute, but if they ride a bikeshare to work and the employer pays for it, it’s a taxable benefit. 1: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growth-ponzi-scheme-md2020?format=amp https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growt...
- api 3y ago
  I agree with most of this. Maybe the problem is with how people write about the issue coupled with the modern social media driven need to edgelord it. I often see this stuff in the form of “fuck cars” type opinions that sound clueless and one sided. Of course the pro-car counter also ends up sounding clueless and one sided. I’ve spent much of my life in dense cities and currently live in suburb (with an EV). There are things I like and dislike about both settings, and I don’t really want either to disappear. In the US we could definitely use more walkable towns and I totally support zoning reform. I also think some suburbs could be retrofitted into walkable town designs over time and I’d be down with this.

by api 3y ago

tetha 3y ago

> I love walkable cities and towns and I think we should build more urban real estate like this. I also think we should in fact build more transit where density makes it make sense. That's largely how it looks e.g. in Hamburg and around Hamburg. Inside of Hamburg, some people own cars for transportation or family reasons, but many people inside of Hamburg don't own cars and rent transportation as necessary, since they don't even need it often. Once you get out of Hamburg into the more rural and village-y germany, cars and bicycles are becoming much more necessary, because the next store could easily be a 20 minute car drive away. This tends to be worse in the US. However, if people need to get into Hamburg, many people tend to drive to a subway station nearby of the collector subways, park there and use transit to get into Hamburg, because the traffic can be a nightmare. It's by no means perfect, since getting up from south of the Elbe is still a bit of a hassle with the public transit, but it works. In my book, that's the most useful approach to take.

soco 3y ago
I'm in a small village and use the car exactly once a week for driving groceries around, otherwise the important local points are perfectly reachable by jumping in the bus. Also I'll drive once a month for some longer trip: bigger shopping, or leisure, or even job related. For these I can't use (bulk items) or don't need (too many switches) public transportation. For those about to get to Hamburg I think the next step (also applicable here in Switzerland) could be syncing a bit better between highway exits and parkings and public transportation between these and the city center - currently usable but definitely not ideal.

paulgb 3y ago

I don’t think anyone serious expects existing suburbs to be torn down in a generation, the argument that car-free folks make is that we should stop forcing new growth to sprawl outside cities by: 1. Not limiting density in cities through red tape (parking requirements, multi-year review processes, etc.) 2. Not forcing urbanites to subsidize suburbanite’s lifestyles, which are more expensive[1] The train argument I typically see is that it should be cheaper to take the train between city pairs in the northeast (NYC-Boston, NYC-DC) than it is to fly, which it currently often is not. There are also a lot of ways the status quo is subtly baked into the system. e.g. employers can offer employees pre-tax money to pay for parking to commute, but if they ride a bikeshare to work and the employer pays for it, it’s a taxable benefit. 1: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growth-ponzi-scheme-md2020?format=amp https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/5/14/americas-growt...

api 3y ago
I agree with most of this. Maybe the problem is with how people write about the issue coupled with the modern social media driven need to edgelord it. I often see this stuff in the form of “fuck cars” type opinions that sound clueless and one sided. Of course the pro-car counter also ends up sounding clueless and one sided. I’ve spent much of my life in dense cities and currently live in suburb (with an EV). There are things I like and dislike about both settings, and I don’t really want either to disappear. In the US we could definitely use more walkable towns and I totally support zoning reform. I also think some suburbs could be retrofitted into walkable town designs over time and I’d be down with this.