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Cash is more expensive to take as a payment method than interchange unless you’re cheating on taxes.

by adrr 3y ago

ramraj07 3y ago
Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. There’s no excuse but lobbying. Credit card rewards are evil. They incentivize crafty behavior to secure miles or whatever and shaft normal people who just want to live life and get what’s equitable without playing shenanigans. I’d rather live in a world where when you pay for a coffee, you pay for the fucking coffee. Not a million equations of cashback and miles with perverse incentives.
- godelski 3y ago
  > Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did > a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. You're not making a great sell here... you're just saying that this is a thing that a corrupt country does and therefor others should.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted. The fact that the US isn’t able to do it suggests it’s in someways far more corrupt than even India.
    - rhaway84773 3y ago
      The U.S. has legalized corruption in the form of lobbying. This wasn’t so bad as long as donations to politicians were capped, but since Cotizens United there is no limit, so the corruption has gone through the roof as well.
    - godelski 3y ago
      > I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted. I still don't understand why this is a convincing argument. As an example, many countries with dictatorships have people that love and support the dictator (no matter how cruel they are). Dictators will also try to make this look universal. This isn't a comment on the banking system (or even India), this is a comment on your argument. You're trying to convince others that a thing is good by connecting it with corruption. For me, this just doesn't follow.
  - 55555 3y ago
    Are you American? Have you lived abroad? Here in Thailand (a "poor" "third-world" country) all individuals and businesses can send instant money transfers with no fees at all 24/7. It's an incredible system. I think the truth is that it has less to do with corruption and more to do with the fact that people who implement technology first end up later with, on average, worse technology. (If you build the first rail system in the world you'll have the worst rail system in 50 years.)
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      The US banking system is lightyears behind the rest of the world in banking, where they still use paper checks and transfers take multiple days. I show my family (who still lives in the US) my banking app and they gawk as if it were some magical thing they'd never even imagined. With a tap of a button in my bank account, I can split a restaurant bill in however many slices I want. Restaurants don't even split bills here (like they do in the US), someone just pays the full amount and splits it in the bank account.
    - godelski 3y ago
      Read my comment again but remove any reference to countries or even credit systems. My comment would apply to any thing that the parent was arguing for. The logic is "corrupt and evil country did x. Therefor anyone can, and should, also do x." The sentence correlates "x" with corruption. If "x" isn't corrupted, then the argument should be different. But I'm just saying that the argument, presented in that way, is unconvincing.
- 55555 3y ago
  FedNow is launching soon. It won't support chargebacks or reversals, which merchants would love, so they may offer it as a payment method (if this is possible). Consumers will then be able to save a few % at the expense losing their ability to contest the transaction. Unless credit card agreements mandate the price be the same regardless of payment method, or something.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I suspect fednow is why visa and MC are moving now to reduce fees. I can’t wait.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      It almost certainly isn't. Nobody's taking FedNow at point of sale.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Nobody is doing anything with FedNow yet because it's not out. But if it works it will grow, just like in the EU where they have similar things and they're used.
        arcticbull 3y ago
        When I said "nobody is taking FedNow" I meant nobody is going to be taking FedNow at the point of sale after launch in July. It'll work just fine, but it enables things like Cash App, Zelle and Venmo to avoid using debit rails. It's quite unlikely it'll actually exist at cash registers. Out of curiosity which product are you referring to in the EU? To my knowledge they just use Visa/MC Debit or local debit schemes at point of sale.
        bombcar 3y ago
        Lots of larger purchases use the equivalent of what would be in the USA a routing number and a bank account number.
- thegrizzlyking 3y ago
  Miles just allow airlines to transfer portion of business expense for personal use.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    And tax free too
  - eru 3y ago
    Yes, I always wonder how this is both legal and allowed by corporations. Sounds like a kick-back from suppliers directly to employees.
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago
  Instead of air mileage, just give us the coffee. We can't afford the time off, but we can drink that damn coffee.
- eru 3y ago
  > Nationalize a universal payment interface like India did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. Didn't you just contradict your own argument?
e63f67dd-065b 3y ago
I'm not objecting to credit cards and promoting cash instead -- I'll happily support a total cash ban (quite an unpopular opinion around these circles, I believe, but that's a story for another time). I'm objecting to the cost of 2-300bps on credit cards, when it is trivially shown that they can be 30-50bps (Alipay, EU caps, etc) and everything will work just fine, just without 2% cashback.
- adrr 3y ago
  Significant number of people below the povery level are unbanked and live off cash which is why some jursidictoons ban retailers from not accepting cash. What's your opinion on Buy now Pay Later for online retailers? fee is close to 5% but allows customers to pay for items with interest free installments over 90 days.
  - Faaak 3y ago
    In some countries, citizens have the right of opening a bank account though
- sumedh 3y ago
  > I'll happily support a total cash ban So if you say something negative about the govt and the govt bans your access to e payments, would you still support that?
  - laratied 3y ago
    It will never happen anyway. We are never going to ban cash in the US because government officials need the anonymity of cash just as much if not more than your local drug dealer.
usernew 3y ago
This is a perpetuated lie based on half-information. It is technically correct. If you are comparing a place that only takes cash, and a place that only takes plastic. This place does not exist. This thing exists, is called a vending machine, and it is indeed cheaper for my bag of chips to be cashless. If a business takes both cash and cards, allowing cards In Addition to already taking cash, does not cost more. It costs a lot less. But don't take my word for it. Just look at how many places kept trying to offer discounts for cash, how hard and for how many decades the card companies lobbied against that, and how many places do that now since it became illegal for credit cards to force that into their vendor agreements. Let me give you an example of the logic used for the statement. A 5 ton truck is faster than a porshe 911. When the truck is cruising on the highway and the porshe is starting off a red light.
- amscanne 3y ago
  What is your argument here? I believe the oft-cited reason cash is more expensive is primarily due to shrinkage, which is on the same order as the credit card fees (unless you’re a family-run business or have only amazingly trustworthy employees). Cash-only discounts can be just as easily explained by the “flexibility” cash provides — you can’t assume the conclusion as a fact. The fact that most cash discounts are greater than 1% generally supports this idea, since a business offering a 3% cash discount definitely earns less than taking plastic. (But the accounting “flexibility” is worth more than that 3%.) Are you saying this is not true, and cash shrinkage is less than the fees?
  - usernew 3y ago
    What I am saying, is what I said. Which has little to do with that to which you are replying. Please read it, and reply to that if you so choose.
    - amscanne 3y ago
      You just asserted it was a lie, but didn’t say why. I want to know how you are refuting the “cashless is cheaper” argument? All of the business owners I know value cash only for the ability to declare a bit less, the fees are a wash with the complexity of dealing with cash. If you are arguing that there is another reason it’s cheaper but not saying how — please tell us! Or are you talking about the every-day, minor tax fraud that makes it cheaper?
carlosjobim 3y ago
This is mostly a myth. If your business has high revenue, that is a lot of money in fees to CC processors. Of course if you prefer CCs then you can invent a bunch of imaginary costs for handling cash. This idea of businesses that are handling cash are cheating on taxes is about as right as saying men with moustaches are burglars.

Cash is more expensive to take as a payment method than interchange unless you’re cheating on taxes.

by adrr 3y ago

Cash is more expensive to take as a payment method than interchange unless you’re cheating on taxes.

Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. There’s no excuse but lobbying. Credit card rewards are evil. They incentivize crafty behavior to secure miles or whatever and shaft normal people who just want to live life and get what’s equitable without playing shenanigans. I’d rather live in a world where when you pay for a coffee, you pay for the fucking coffee. Not a million equations of cashback and miles with perverse incentives.

godelski 3y ago
> Nationalize a universal payment interface like india did > a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. You're not making a great sell here... you're just saying that this is a thing that a corrupt country does and therefor others should.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted. The fact that the US isn’t able to do it suggests it’s in someways far more corrupt than even India.
  - rhaway84773 3y ago
    The U.S. has legalized corruption in the form of lobbying. This wasn’t so bad as long as donations to politicians were capped, but since Cotizens United there is no limit, so the corruption has gone through the roof as well.
  - godelski 3y ago
    > I said it’s something even a corrupt country was able to do that is universally loved and accepted. I still don't understand why this is a convincing argument. As an example, many countries with dictatorships have people that love and support the dictator (no matter how cruel they are). Dictators will also try to make this look universal. This isn't a comment on the banking system (or even India), this is a comment on your argument. You're trying to convince others that a thing is good by connecting it with corruption. For me, this just doesn't follow.
- 55555 3y ago
  Are you American? Have you lived abroad? Here in Thailand (a "poor" "third-world" country) all individuals and businesses can send instant money transfers with no fees at all 24/7. It's an incredible system. I think the truth is that it has less to do with corruption and more to do with the fact that people who implement technology first end up later with, on average, worse technology. (If you build the first rail system in the world you'll have the worst rail system in 50 years.)
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    The US banking system is lightyears behind the rest of the world in banking, where they still use paper checks and transfers take multiple days. I show my family (who still lives in the US) my banking app and they gawk as if it were some magical thing they'd never even imagined. With a tap of a button in my bank account, I can split a restaurant bill in however many slices I want. Restaurants don't even split bills here (like they do in the US), someone just pays the full amount and splits it in the bank account.
  - godelski 3y ago
    Read my comment again but remove any reference to countries or even credit systems. My comment would apply to any thing that the parent was arguing for. The logic is "corrupt and evil country did x. Therefor anyone can, and should, also do x." The sentence correlates "x" with corruption. If "x" isn't corrupted, then the argument should be different. But I'm just saying that the argument, presented in that way, is unconvincing.
55555 3y ago
FedNow is launching soon. It won't support chargebacks or reversals, which merchants would love, so they may offer it as a payment method (if this is possible). Consumers will then be able to save a few % at the expense losing their ability to contest the transaction. Unless credit card agreements mandate the price be the same regardless of payment method, or something.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I suspect fednow is why visa and MC are moving now to reduce fees. I can’t wait.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    It almost certainly isn't. Nobody's taking FedNow at point of sale.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Nobody is doing anything with FedNow yet because it's not out. But if it works it will grow, just like in the EU where they have similar things and they're used.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        When I said "nobody is taking FedNow" I meant nobody is going to be taking FedNow at the point of sale after launch in July. It'll work just fine, but it enables things like Cash App, Zelle and Venmo to avoid using debit rails. It's quite unlikely it'll actually exist at cash registers. Out of curiosity which product are you referring to in the EU? To my knowledge they just use Visa/MC Debit or local debit schemes at point of sale.
        bombcar 3y ago
        Lots of larger purchases use the equivalent of what would be in the USA a routing number and a bank account number.
thegrizzlyking 3y ago
Miles just allow airlines to transfer portion of business expense for personal use.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  And tax free too
- eru 3y ago
  Yes, I always wonder how this is both legal and allowed by corporations. Sounds like a kick-back from suppliers directly to employees.
dumpsterdiver 3y ago
Instead of air mileage, just give us the coffee. We can't afford the time off, but we can drink that damn coffee.
eru 3y ago
> Nationalize a universal payment interface like India did. India, a very corrupt, bureaucratic place with billions of people did it. Didn't you just contradict your own argument?

e63f67dd-065b 3y ago

I'm not objecting to credit cards and promoting cash instead -- I'll happily support a total cash ban (quite an unpopular opinion around these circles, I believe, but that's a story for another time). I'm objecting to the cost of 2-300bps on credit cards, when it is trivially shown that they can be 30-50bps (Alipay, EU caps, etc) and everything will work just fine, just without 2% cashback.

adrr 3y ago
Significant number of people below the povery level are unbanked and live off cash which is why some jursidictoons ban retailers from not accepting cash. What's your opinion on Buy now Pay Later for online retailers? fee is close to 5% but allows customers to pay for items with interest free installments over 90 days.
- Faaak 3y ago
  In some countries, citizens have the right of opening a bank account though
sumedh 3y ago
> I'll happily support a total cash ban So if you say something negative about the govt and the govt bans your access to e payments, would you still support that?
- laratied 3y ago
  It will never happen anyway. We are never going to ban cash in the US because government officials need the anonymity of cash just as much if not more than your local drug dealer.

usernew 3y ago

This is a perpetuated lie based on half-information. It is technically correct. If you are comparing a place that only takes cash, and a place that only takes plastic. This place does not exist. This thing exists, is called a vending machine, and it is indeed cheaper for my bag of chips to be cashless. If a business takes both cash and cards, allowing cards In Addition to already taking cash, does not cost more. It costs a lot less. But don't take my word for it. Just look at how many places kept trying to offer discounts for cash, how hard and for how many decades the card companies lobbied against that, and how many places do that now since it became illegal for credit cards to force that into their vendor agreements. Let me give you an example of the logic used for the statement. A 5 ton truck is faster than a porshe 911. When the truck is cruising on the highway and the porshe is starting off a red light.

amscanne 3y ago
What is your argument here? I believe the oft-cited reason cash is more expensive is primarily due to shrinkage, which is on the same order as the credit card fees (unless you’re a family-run business or have only amazingly trustworthy employees). Cash-only discounts can be just as easily explained by the “flexibility” cash provides — you can’t assume the conclusion as a fact. The fact that most cash discounts are greater than 1% generally supports this idea, since a business offering a 3% cash discount definitely earns less than taking plastic. (But the accounting “flexibility” is worth more than that 3%.) Are you saying this is not true, and cash shrinkage is less than the fees?
- usernew 3y ago
  What I am saying, is what I said. Which has little to do with that to which you are replying. Please read it, and reply to that if you so choose.
  - amscanne 3y ago
    You just asserted it was a lie, but didn’t say why. I want to know how you are refuting the “cashless is cheaper” argument? All of the business owners I know value cash only for the ability to declare a bit less, the fees are a wash with the complexity of dealing with cash. If you are arguing that there is another reason it’s cheaper but not saying how — please tell us! Or are you talking about the every-day, minor tax fraud that makes it cheaper?

carlosjobim 3y ago

This is mostly a myth. If your business has high revenue, that is a lot of money in fees to CC processors. Of course if you prefer CCs then you can invent a bunch of imaginary costs for handling cash. This idea of businesses that are handling cash are cheating on taxes is about as right as saying men with moustaches are burglars.