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> Onboarding in particular is demonstrably more difficult to do remotely. How would you demonstrate this? I’m with a funded SV startup that’s been remote-only

> Onboarding in particular is demonstrably more difficult to do remotely. How would you demonstrate this? I’m with a funded SV startup that’s been remote-only since its founding, a few years before covid. We have staff in at least five countries, and in the US, in at least five states (just based on the people I can think of offhand.) The company is the leader in its field, which involves significant real innovation, and has many major enterprise customers. I’ve helped onboard many employees, and I’ve managed one of the key product teams. When I hear people talk about all the disadvantages of remote work, I just internally roll my eyes. As you say, they’re plugging their own personal preference. But that seems to be exactly what you’re doing with the quote above.

bloppe 3y ago
I am just plugging my preference. Tried to emphasize "me personally". I'm sure many companies work much better without an office, though I think at a certain size it almost certainly becomes beneficial to have at least some office space. My main point was that neckties are not an apt comparison, and that we don't really know yet how valuable offices are under various circumstances.
- antonvs 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - TapWaterBandit 3y ago
    This is unfair. I don't have a strong position in this debate but there is clearly a difference between in-person interaction and digital interaction that is much greater than the superficial nature of the necktie (or any other piece of clothing). Which is why it generates such strong feelings compared to the necktie.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      Back when neckties were required, people were just as convinced “real business” couldn’t be done without having a professional appearance. It only seems ridiculous now because it turns out neckties weren’t really required. But we could look back with the same incredulity on spending $80k/mo for an office that the entire workforce commuted 30 mins to and from every day.
  - shard 3y ago
    This is similar to saying that you are just justifying your preference for board shorts and flip flops. Although I am a huge proponent of WFH, I had found it very hard to build relationships during the beginning years of the pandemic, and it wasn't until travel has opened up and I met in-person many of the people who I've only ever met over Zoom that I was able to start building relationships, which noticeably accelerated a lot of the work that I do that relied on other people. It's just so much easier to break the ice with someone when meeting face to face. Also, people will tell you things when meeting 1-on-1 in person over a beer that they will never tell you in Zoom, and this applies to customers and vendors as well as co-workers, and is extremely useful to understanding the hidden forces which is sometimes crucial in doing your job well.
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      > people will tell you things when meeting 1-on-1 in person over a beer that they will never tell you in Zoom As they should. Zoom is monitored. Beer is not.
    - danaris 3y ago
      I think it's reasonable to make a distinction between - A remote-only job, with no requirement to ever come in to "the office" to work (particularly not to do regular work, as opposed to a meeting), and - The situation we had during the pandemic, when all jobs that could be had to be as remote as possible for safety, most socialization was severely curtailed, and travel was dangerous at best I don't think it's at all out of the question for a "remote-only" WFH job to include travel, provided it's a) disclosed up front, and b) paid for in full by the company. This can even include occasional mandatory meetings with colleagues, either at some company-owned property or elsewhere. Personally, I find that the best way to get those kinds of less-formal getting-to-know-you interactions with people you don't see physically face-to-face is by having an open text chat system—something like Slack, Discord, IRC, etc. I've got friends I met online a decade or more ago who I only know through such chats, but would feel very comfortable working "side by side" with digitally (if it were ever to come up) because of the rapport we've built over the years.
squokko 3y ago
Remote work definitely works for some companies and not for others. If football player X never lifts weights and player Y lifts weights a lot, and they have similar levels of performance, it does not follow that lifting weights is unnecessary for a successful football career. It just means that it's unnecessary for player X.
Sai_ 3y ago
I was hired into a senior role (architect level) by a company that was compelled to go remote because of the pandemic. Remotely building working relationships at that level was hard AF since most people I had to work with already knew each other from the pre-pandemic days and were happy to have sidebar conversations to keep moving. We parted ways about 9 months into the job when we both realised this wasn’t working. My impression is that remote work for new employees needs a lot of explicit relationship and trust building that we get for free when we interact with people in an office.
- rwmj 3y ago
  This is about being "remote first". All discussions should happen in the shared chat or at the weekly group video call except if there's some specific reason not to (eg. disclosure of non-public corporate financials, personal 1-1s, or similar). It sounds like that company transferred some bad office habits to online.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    This is the thing right here Remote requires personal responsibility as well. From everybody
  - Sai_ 3y ago
    This sounds suspiciously like a “no true Scotsman” argument to me. Remote first is a spectrum and dismissing lived experiences as “oh, you just haven’t experienced the right kind of remote first” helps no one. What makes you think documenting everything exhaustively is a panacea? What if the quality of documentation sucks? Will your argument change to “you have to document everything to a certain level of quality otherwise you aren’t remote first enough”? Please don’t feel I’m attacking you. I was a big remote first proponent before experiencing the difficulties of integrating with teams who didn’t know me except as a voice on a call. After this, I’m more sympathetic to execs demanding RTO for culture reasons.
- vidarh 3y ago
  I joined a remote only company 5 months ago and saw people face to face for the first time earlier this week. It takes more conscious effort, sure. But that's also all. It will be a hard adjustment for companies whose staff is not used to remote work, but it's just a skill people will acquire.
dustymcp 3y ago
We saw immediate changes in productivity when people moved home 2 years before covid, less meetings, things got done and people where in generel more happy, but that might not be for everyone but onboarding wasnt made harder, what was harder is the comradery you get at the office, but that was also what swallowed alot of time in the first place i suspect..

bloppe 3y ago

I am just plugging my preference. Tried to emphasize "me personally". I'm sure many companies work much better without an office, though I think at a certain size it almost certainly becomes beneficial to have at least some office space. My main point was that neckties are not an apt comparison, and that we don't really know yet how valuable offices are under various circumstances.

antonvs 3y ago
[flagged]
- TapWaterBandit 3y ago
  This is unfair. I don't have a strong position in this debate but there is clearly a difference between in-person interaction and digital interaction that is much greater than the superficial nature of the necktie (or any other piece of clothing). Which is why it generates such strong feelings compared to the necktie.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Back when neckties were required, people were just as convinced “real business” couldn’t be done without having a professional appearance. It only seems ridiculous now because it turns out neckties weren’t really required. But we could look back with the same incredulity on spending $80k/mo for an office that the entire workforce commuted 30 mins to and from every day.
- shard 3y ago
  This is similar to saying that you are just justifying your preference for board shorts and flip flops. Although I am a huge proponent of WFH, I had found it very hard to build relationships during the beginning years of the pandemic, and it wasn't until travel has opened up and I met in-person many of the people who I've only ever met over Zoom that I was able to start building relationships, which noticeably accelerated a lot of the work that I do that relied on other people. It's just so much easier to break the ice with someone when meeting face to face. Also, people will tell you things when meeting 1-on-1 in person over a beer that they will never tell you in Zoom, and this applies to customers and vendors as well as co-workers, and is extremely useful to understanding the hidden forces which is sometimes crucial in doing your job well.
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    > people will tell you things when meeting 1-on-1 in person over a beer that they will never tell you in Zoom As they should. Zoom is monitored. Beer is not.
  - danaris 3y ago
    I think it's reasonable to make a distinction between - A remote-only job, with no requirement to ever come in to "the office" to work (particularly not to do regular work, as opposed to a meeting), and - The situation we had during the pandemic, when all jobs that could be had to be as remote as possible for safety, most socialization was severely curtailed, and travel was dangerous at best I don't think it's at all out of the question for a "remote-only" WFH job to include travel, provided it's a) disclosed up front, and b) paid for in full by the company. This can even include occasional mandatory meetings with colleagues, either at some company-owned property or elsewhere. Personally, I find that the best way to get those kinds of less-formal getting-to-know-you interactions with people you don't see physically face-to-face is by having an open text chat system—something like Slack, Discord, IRC, etc. I've got friends I met online a decade or more ago who I only know through such chats, but would feel very comfortable working "side by side" with digitally (if it were ever to come up) because of the rapport we've built over the years.

squokko 3y ago

Remote work definitely works for some companies and not for others. If football player X never lifts weights and player Y lifts weights a lot, and they have similar levels of performance, it does not follow that lifting weights is unnecessary for a successful football career. It just means that it's unnecessary for player X.

Sai_ 3y ago

I was hired into a senior role (architect level) by a company that was compelled to go remote because of the pandemic. Remotely building working relationships at that level was hard AF since most people I had to work with already knew each other from the pre-pandemic days and were happy to have sidebar conversations to keep moving. We parted ways about 9 months into the job when we both realised this wasn’t working. My impression is that remote work for new employees needs a lot of explicit relationship and trust building that we get for free when we interact with people in an office.

rwmj 3y ago
This is about being "remote first". All discussions should happen in the shared chat or at the weekly group video call except if there's some specific reason not to (eg. disclosure of non-public corporate financials, personal 1-1s, or similar). It sounds like that company transferred some bad office habits to online.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  This is the thing right here Remote requires personal responsibility as well. From everybody
- Sai_ 3y ago
  This sounds suspiciously like a “no true Scotsman” argument to me. Remote first is a spectrum and dismissing lived experiences as “oh, you just haven’t experienced the right kind of remote first” helps no one. What makes you think documenting everything exhaustively is a panacea? What if the quality of documentation sucks? Will your argument change to “you have to document everything to a certain level of quality otherwise you aren’t remote first enough”? Please don’t feel I’m attacking you. I was a big remote first proponent before experiencing the difficulties of integrating with teams who didn’t know me except as a voice on a call. After this, I’m more sympathetic to execs demanding RTO for culture reasons.
vidarh 3y ago
I joined a remote only company 5 months ago and saw people face to face for the first time earlier this week. It takes more conscious effort, sure. But that's also all. It will be a hard adjustment for companies whose staff is not used to remote work, but it's just a skill people will acquire.

dustymcp 3y ago

We saw immediate changes in productivity when people moved home 2 years before covid, less meetings, things got done and people where in generel more happy, but that might not be for everyone but onboarding wasnt made harder, what was harder is the comradery you get at the office, but that was also what swallowed alot of time in the first place i suspect..