4 ms·

I think the ops point was that even if they want to, they don’t want to. I can’t comment on the MN light rail now as I haven’t been on it for a few years, but

by cassac 3y ago

I think the ops point was that even if they want to, they don’t want to. I can’t comment on the MN light rail now as I haven’t been on it for a few years, but the green line used to be essentially an open air drug market and the blue line I almost got stabbed. Add in a few instances of homeless on homeless violence and driving starts looking like a great option. That’s not even covering how poorly ran it is. I want to ride it… but I don’t want to ride it.

tokyolights2 3y ago
That is a self-reinforcing cycle. There have been long and successful campaigns by car companies and other self-interested entities in the US to associate public transportation with being poor. Just like how a city street is safer per-capita if there are more people on it, public transit is safer if it is more well-used. I see this in seattle. When I am commuting in the morning or in the evening my bus is full of yuppies and working class people getting to their job. But if I take the bus on the weekend or during the off hours when well-adjusted people are not on it, the bus is a much less inviting place. I don't know how to solve the problem other than to believe in the system and hope that other people do as well.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  All one has to do is charge a fare, enforce it, and other existing laws. Used to be a simple contract. That was abandoned. While I was a long-term advocate of public transportation, no longer can recommend it. Certainly not for my family in this city. Not like a “law and order” candidate is ever getting elected again in this state. Even a more compassionate version I’d support. Unexpectedly Rio de Janeiro does this a lot better than California.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    While I'm with you on fare enforcement, there are costs associated with fare collection. Usually it takes passengers time to pull out change and they can be confused about how and where to pay, adding to delays. Building the infrastructure for fare payment at gates is expensive and requires security to maintain and dissuade vandals. Boudin's recall in SF also shows that there's certainly support for a tougher on crime stance, whether or not you agree with it.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      There are costs for doing it properly, and there are costs for not: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      In 2023, any transit system that requires more than quickly tapping your phone, wallet, watch, etc to the the turnstile is decades behind the world technologically and the inconvenience of looking for change is a problem because of the city council or state not investing in public transit. The vast majority of mass transit riders are not tourists from the suburbs using the system as a novelty that would be confused anyway. I am personally not a fan of NFC becoming the standard in the US, since it requires strategically placing credit cards in your wallet instead of using a card specifically made for transit fare, but it does make it so large swathes of the population never even have to think about going to a fare machine.
      - ant6n 3y ago
        A system that relies on turnstiles is decades behind as well. Best practices in much of Europe use proof of payment and cheap monthly passes relative to single tickets, so most users have monthly passes. This cuts down on access time, infrastructure cost, fare collection cost, and minimizes marginal cost per trip for users (i.e. zero). In Germany, they just introduced a monthly 49€ ticket that covers transit (and regional trains) for the whole country.
        Larrikin 3y ago
        I usually compare how far behind the US is to Japan. How does a system without turnstiles work in Europe? In Japan, the shinkansen can still actually be used with their cards and tapping pass the turnstile, but nearly everyone besides business passengers buys a ticket for the one off far trips. I can't even imagine short trip subways not having a turnstile. Even in the US, monthly swipe passes have been a thing in even the systems that used tokens.
joe_the_user 3y ago
What exactly are you adding here? I've noted that public transit is unpleasant 'cause it's underfunded and poorly planned. There's not much money for security, the routes are bad and irregular and so only those with no other choice ride it and so it's the very poor and that can result in bad behavior - plus those aiming to victimize step in as well.
bentlegen 3y ago
We created a society where homeless people have so few means, they turn to public transit just to have a roof over their heads and stay warm. Then we lament how public transit has become “undesirable”, never recognizing the active steps we take to make it so.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  It’s a prerequisite that must be fixed to restore public transport in this area: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...

by cassac 3y ago

tokyolights2 3y ago

That is a self-reinforcing cycle. There have been long and successful campaigns by car companies and other self-interested entities in the US to associate public transportation with being poor. Just like how a city street is safer per-capita if there are more people on it, public transit is safer if it is more well-used. I see this in seattle. When I am commuting in the morning or in the evening my bus is full of yuppies and working class people getting to their job. But if I take the bus on the weekend or during the off hours when well-adjusted people are not on it, the bus is a much less inviting place. I don't know how to solve the problem other than to believe in the system and hope that other people do as well.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
All one has to do is charge a fare, enforce it, and other existing laws. Used to be a simple contract. That was abandoned. While I was a long-term advocate of public transportation, no longer can recommend it. Certainly not for my family in this city. Not like a “law and order” candidate is ever getting elected again in this state. Even a more compassionate version I’d support. Unexpectedly Rio de Janeiro does this a lot better than California.
- Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  While I'm with you on fare enforcement, there are costs associated with fare collection. Usually it takes passengers time to pull out change and they can be confused about how and where to pay, adding to delays. Building the infrastructure for fare payment at gates is expensive and requires security to maintain and dissuade vandals. Boudin's recall in SF also shows that there's certainly support for a tougher on crime stance, whether or not you agree with it.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    There are costs for doing it properly, and there are costs for not: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    In 2023, any transit system that requires more than quickly tapping your phone, wallet, watch, etc to the the turnstile is decades behind the world technologically and the inconvenience of looking for change is a problem because of the city council or state not investing in public transit. The vast majority of mass transit riders are not tourists from the suburbs using the system as a novelty that would be confused anyway. I am personally not a fan of NFC becoming the standard in the US, since it requires strategically placing credit cards in your wallet instead of using a card specifically made for transit fare, but it does make it so large swathes of the population never even have to think about going to a fare machine.
    - ant6n 3y ago
      A system that relies on turnstiles is decades behind as well. Best practices in much of Europe use proof of payment and cheap monthly passes relative to single tickets, so most users have monthly passes. This cuts down on access time, infrastructure cost, fare collection cost, and minimizes marginal cost per trip for users (i.e. zero). In Germany, they just introduced a monthly 49€ ticket that covers transit (and regional trains) for the whole country.
      - Larrikin 3y ago
        I usually compare how far behind the US is to Japan. How does a system without turnstiles work in Europe? In Japan, the shinkansen can still actually be used with their cards and tapping pass the turnstile, but nearly everyone besides business passengers buys a ticket for the one off far trips. I can't even imagine short trip subways not having a turnstile. Even in the US, monthly swipe passes have been a thing in even the systems that used tokens.

joe_the_user 3y ago

What exactly are you adding here? I've noted that public transit is unpleasant 'cause it's underfunded and poorly planned. There's not much money for security, the routes are bad and irregular and so only those with no other choice ride it and so it's the very poor and that can result in bad behavior - plus those aiming to victimize step in as well.

bentlegen 3y ago

We created a society where homeless people have so few means, they turn to public transit just to have a roof over their heads and stay warm. Then we lament how public transit has become “undesirable”, never recognizing the active steps we take to make it so.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
It’s a prerequisite that must be fixed to restore public transport in this area: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...