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It’s odd to me that these anti-car polemics never talk about why Americans don’t want to ride public transit Yes they do. US public transit is terrible and var

It’s odd to me that these anti-car polemics never talk about why Americans don’t want to ride public transit Yes they do. US public transit is terrible and various groups like Strong Towns describe this and explain why. Things like the way buses wind-up the first thing cut in budget crises etc are important parts of the barrier to ending a car-based urbanism. See a multitude of article here: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/category/Public+Transit https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/category/Public+Transit

cassac 3y ago
I think the ops point was that even if they want to, they don’t want to. I can’t comment on the MN light rail now as I haven’t been on it for a few years, but the green line used to be essentially an open air drug market and the blue line I almost got stabbed. Add in a few instances of homeless on homeless violence and driving starts looking like a great option. That’s not even covering how poorly ran it is. I want to ride it… but I don’t want to ride it.
- tokyolights2 3y ago
  That is a self-reinforcing cycle. There have been long and successful campaigns by car companies and other self-interested entities in the US to associate public transportation with being poor. Just like how a city street is safer per-capita if there are more people on it, public transit is safer if it is more well-used. I see this in seattle. When I am commuting in the morning or in the evening my bus is full of yuppies and working class people getting to their job. But if I take the bus on the weekend or during the off hours when well-adjusted people are not on it, the bus is a much less inviting place. I don't know how to solve the problem other than to believe in the system and hope that other people do as well.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    All one has to do is charge a fare, enforce it, and other existing laws. Used to be a simple contract. That was abandoned. While I was a long-term advocate of public transportation, no longer can recommend it. Certainly not for my family in this city. Not like a “law and order” candidate is ever getting elected again in this state. Even a more compassionate version I’d support. Unexpectedly Rio de Janeiro does this a lot better than California.
    - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
      While I'm with you on fare enforcement, there are costs associated with fare collection. Usually it takes passengers time to pull out change and they can be confused about how and where to pay, adding to delays. Building the infrastructure for fare payment at gates is expensive and requires security to maintain and dissuade vandals. Boudin's recall in SF also shows that there's certainly support for a tougher on crime stance, whether or not you agree with it.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        There are costs for doing it properly, and there are costs for not: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
      - Larrikin 3y ago
        In 2023, any transit system that requires more than quickly tapping your phone, wallet, watch, etc to the the turnstile is decades behind the world technologically and the inconvenience of looking for change is a problem because of the city council or state not investing in public transit. The vast majority of mass transit riders are not tourists from the suburbs using the system as a novelty that would be confused anyway. I am personally not a fan of NFC becoming the standard in the US, since it requires strategically placing credit cards in your wallet instead of using a card specifically made for transit fare, but it does make it so large swathes of the population never even have to think about going to a fare machine.
        ant6n 3y ago
        A system that relies on turnstiles is decades behind as well. Best practices in much of Europe use proof of payment and cheap monthly passes relative to single tickets, so most users have monthly passes. This cuts down on access time, infrastructure cost, fare collection cost, and minimizes marginal cost per trip for users (i.e. zero). In Germany, they just introduced a monthly 49€ ticket that covers transit (and regional trains) for the whole country.
- joe_the_user 3y ago
  What exactly are you adding here? I've noted that public transit is unpleasant 'cause it's underfunded and poorly planned. There's not much money for security, the routes are bad and irregular and so only those with no other choice ride it and so it's the very poor and that can result in bad behavior - plus those aiming to victimize step in as well.
- bentlegen 3y ago
  We created a society where homeless people have so few means, they turn to public transit just to have a roof over their heads and stay warm. Then we lament how public transit has become “undesirable”, never recognizing the active steps we take to make it so.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    It’s a prerequisite that must be fixed to restore public transport in this area: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
hablog 3y ago
[flagged]
- dev1n 3y ago
  The reason these people are homeless a lot of the times is because they lack housing. Drug usage and crime are a side-effect of this [1]. Denser housing -> Better (frequent, reliable) public transport -> more people use it -> More people want to live in denser housing -> More denser housing is developed -> less homeless. This is the formula for how Manhattan, brooklyn, and queens were developed by real estate companies. Builders wanted to be near public transport because they knew they could build large apartment buildings and get a bunch of money in rent because a bunch of people wanted to live near public transport so they could get places quickly and reliably. [1]: Also if we legalized all drugs people wouldn't be forced to turn to criminal organizations. We already do this with alcohol.
  - hablog 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - bombcar 3y ago
    People steal bud light. I remember being accosted by an apparently homeless dude with a trash bag full of beer who was handing it out on the tram. I drank one.
    - samtho 3y ago
      People steal bud light because they can’t afford or don’t want to pay for it, not because it’s illegal to have or consume. The war on drugs had done untold damage to our society by reframing drug problems as a moral problem rather than a medical problem. Black markets pop up immediately once things are banned because, as long as there is a market for it, supply will meet demand.
- watwut 3y ago
  America is already imprisoning more people than any other comparable country and does not have all that much more crime overall. And crime in America is now significantly lower then a generation ago, despite all the fearmongering. Fear in America has zero to do with reality of crime.
seadan83 3y ago
It's a self reinforcing cycle. Public transit sucks, ergo it is cut, it becomes worse is less useful, ridership declines, nobody is riding it, defunded more - rinse wash repeat. See transit is horrible... Seeing well done public transit is eye opening. We also don't consider sometimes that driving is terrible too in cities. 30 minutes to get down an on ramp, 30 more to go across a bridge. At some point bad public transit and grid locked cities is just.. dystopian. Fundamentally a problem of scale, personal cars just can't move many millions in and out of a city, the math of how much time and space that requires doesn't work.

cassac 3y ago

I think the ops point was that even if they want to, they don’t want to. I can’t comment on the MN light rail now as I haven’t been on it for a few years, but the green line used to be essentially an open air drug market and the blue line I almost got stabbed. Add in a few instances of homeless on homeless violence and driving starts looking like a great option. That’s not even covering how poorly ran it is. I want to ride it… but I don’t want to ride it.

tokyolights2 3y ago
That is a self-reinforcing cycle. There have been long and successful campaigns by car companies and other self-interested entities in the US to associate public transportation with being poor. Just like how a city street is safer per-capita if there are more people on it, public transit is safer if it is more well-used. I see this in seattle. When I am commuting in the morning or in the evening my bus is full of yuppies and working class people getting to their job. But if I take the bus on the weekend or during the off hours when well-adjusted people are not on it, the bus is a much less inviting place. I don't know how to solve the problem other than to believe in the system and hope that other people do as well.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  All one has to do is charge a fare, enforce it, and other existing laws. Used to be a simple contract. That was abandoned. While I was a long-term advocate of public transportation, no longer can recommend it. Certainly not for my family in this city. Not like a “law and order” candidate is ever getting elected again in this state. Even a more compassionate version I’d support. Unexpectedly Rio de Janeiro does this a lot better than California.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    While I'm with you on fare enforcement, there are costs associated with fare collection. Usually it takes passengers time to pull out change and they can be confused about how and where to pay, adding to delays. Building the infrastructure for fare payment at gates is expensive and requires security to maintain and dissuade vandals. Boudin's recall in SF also shows that there's certainly support for a tougher on crime stance, whether or not you agree with it.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      There are costs for doing it properly, and there are costs for not: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      In 2023, any transit system that requires more than quickly tapping your phone, wallet, watch, etc to the the turnstile is decades behind the world technologically and the inconvenience of looking for change is a problem because of the city council or state not investing in public transit. The vast majority of mass transit riders are not tourists from the suburbs using the system as a novelty that would be confused anyway. I am personally not a fan of NFC becoming the standard in the US, since it requires strategically placing credit cards in your wallet instead of using a card specifically made for transit fare, but it does make it so large swathes of the population never even have to think about going to a fare machine.
      - ant6n 3y ago
        A system that relies on turnstiles is decades behind as well. Best practices in much of Europe use proof of payment and cheap monthly passes relative to single tickets, so most users have monthly passes. This cuts down on access time, infrastructure cost, fare collection cost, and minimizes marginal cost per trip for users (i.e. zero). In Germany, they just introduced a monthly 49€ ticket that covers transit (and regional trains) for the whole country.
joe_the_user 3y ago
What exactly are you adding here? I've noted that public transit is unpleasant 'cause it's underfunded and poorly planned. There's not much money for security, the routes are bad and irregular and so only those with no other choice ride it and so it's the very poor and that can result in bad behavior - plus those aiming to victimize step in as well.
bentlegen 3y ago
We created a society where homeless people have so few means, they turn to public transit just to have a roof over their heads and stay warm. Then we lament how public transit has become “undesirable”, never recognizing the active steps we take to make it so.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  It’s a prerequisite that must be fixed to restore public transport in this area: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...

hablog 3y ago

[flagged]

dev1n 3y ago
The reason these people are homeless a lot of the times is because they lack housing. Drug usage and crime are a side-effect of this [1]. Denser housing -> Better (frequent, reliable) public transport -> more people use it -> More people want to live in denser housing -> More denser housing is developed -> less homeless. This is the formula for how Manhattan, brooklyn, and queens were developed by real estate companies. Builders wanted to be near public transport because they knew they could build large apartment buildings and get a bunch of money in rent because a bunch of people wanted to live near public transport so they could get places quickly and reliably. [1]: Also if we legalized all drugs people wouldn't be forced to turn to criminal organizations. We already do this with alcohol.
- hablog 3y ago
  [flagged]
- bombcar 3y ago
  People steal bud light. I remember being accosted by an apparently homeless dude with a trash bag full of beer who was handing it out on the tram. I drank one.
  - samtho 3y ago
    People steal bud light because they can’t afford or don’t want to pay for it, not because it’s illegal to have or consume. The war on drugs had done untold damage to our society by reframing drug problems as a moral problem rather than a medical problem. Black markets pop up immediately once things are banned because, as long as there is a market for it, supply will meet demand.
watwut 3y ago
America is already imprisoning more people than any other comparable country and does not have all that much more crime overall. And crime in America is now significantly lower then a generation ago, despite all the fearmongering. Fear in America has zero to do with reality of crime.

seadan83 3y ago

It's a self reinforcing cycle. Public transit sucks, ergo it is cut, it becomes worse is less useful, ridership declines, nobody is riding it, defunded more - rinse wash repeat. See transit is horrible... Seeing well done public transit is eye opening. We also don't consider sometimes that driving is terrible too in cities. 30 minutes to get down an on ramp, 30 more to go across a bridge. At some point bad public transit and grid locked cities is just.. dystopian. Fundamentally a problem of scale, personal cars just can't move many millions in and out of a city, the math of how much time and space that requires doesn't work.