36 ms·

Spacetop, a radical laptop with no screen

326 points by advance512 3y ago

rbanffy 3y ago
So, like an 80s home computer, but with a VR/AR set instead of a screen. Could look like a Sinclair QL, at least.
Sakos 3y ago
> Priced at $2,000, the Spacetop is purpose-built as a business tool, with an optimized Arm processor, AOSP (open-source Android) operating system, and, of course, the custom headset. But you’ll need to act fast: Sightful is inviting just 1,000 early adopters to purchase the final hardware, enticing them with the opportunity to provide feedback on subsequent products. It sports a Snapdragon 865. I don't see anything here that could possibly justify that price. You're basically just paying for exclusivity as a beta tester.
- prox 3y ago
  Android makes it a hard pass for me. Give a me a decent Linux and I will give it a look.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    i'm not sure, other than the battery solution that you couldn't get this through nreal glasses and a raspberry pi 400.
billconan 3y ago
this is a cool concept, but I have tried some VR devices, none of them are clear enough to be a monitor replacement. I also don't know the long term impact of these devices to my eye sight.
- drcongo 3y ago
  My vision is only in perfect(ish) focus at the exact distance that I sit from my computer screen. I can't imagine that this is a coincidence.
  - dr_kiszonka 3y ago
    It probably isn't but there are simple exercises to help ameliorate it†. (The problem is that I am frequently too lazy or too busy to do them.) †unless, in your case, the arrow of causality between vision and computer screen distance is in the opposite direction.
    - ChrisLTD 3y ago
      what exercises should we be doing?
      - mtsr 3y ago
        The obvious one is taking regular breaks from the screen. Focus on things at least 10-30 meters away, so your eyes can relax. Also, with a good lens setup or with direct projection, VR/AR headsets could theoretically set the focus distance at any distance or even dynamically change it. This would also solve the vergence-accommodation conflict with current headsets.
- clnq 3y ago
  Most VR headsets on the market are not clear enough to display text. For example, Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 both have pixel densities around 21 pixels per degree. While a 27" monitor running at 2560x1440 at an arm's length (40 degrees horizontal FOV) will have a pixel density of around 64 pixels per degree. 64 PPD is very legible and usable for office applications, chatting, and similar things. One can see individual pixels in very aliased and high-contrast images, but not otherwise. In contrast, 21 PPD is not great - most text will be either very blurry or aliased on an equivalent virtual display. The math is simple: 21 pixels per degree x 40 degrees (which is 1/3rd of the human eye's horizontal FOV including peripheral vision), equals a display resolution of about 840x473 at 16:9, or close to 420p. Clearly, this is not comfortable to do office work with. SpaceTop has a relatively low FOV but much higher pixel density of about 46 pixels per degree. It's about twice as good as what Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 can do. It also seems to have individual floating apps rather than entire screens, but if we would assume that one would like to have a typical experience roughly equivalent to a 27" 16:9 screen at an arm's length, that virtual screen would be at about 1840x1035. I think this is right at the edge of what I would consider comfortable. Most graphics, including text, would probably be slightly blurry, and anti-aliasing blur or aliasing artefacts would be clearly seen. But I would not get too frustrated by it. That's a trend with AR glasses when compared to VR headsets - they have narrower FOV and higher pixel densities. So they are overall better for non-immersive office-like applications. Still, the holy grail of productivity AR headsets is something like 60 PPD and at least 90 degrees horizontal FOV x 60 degrees vertical FOV. At that point, I would say the differences between our actual vision and what can be shown on the glasses in terms of resolution would be not significant, assuming the eye balls always point within 30 degrees of the center of the AR display. But this means a resolution of around 5400x3600 per eye. Or approaching 12K in total for both eyes combined. SpaceTop is probably much more usable for office work than many of the VR headsets on the market. And it seems like they're aiming for a similar experience to having one or two 1080p 27" screens about a meter away from one's face. I think it's right on the border between fun tech and practical tech. Slightly higher PPD and FOV would push it more into the territory of practical tech for me, someone who writes and codes while travelling. Now it sounds good but not revolutionary.
danjoredd 3y ago
Ok but will Linux run well on it?
- grishka 3y ago
  It runs Android out of the box, which is based on Linux.
rqtwteye 3y ago
I think in principle this is a great idea and maybe the future. I just wonder what this will do to your eyes if used the whole day.
- nntwozz 3y ago
  Probably not great if you compare to previous inventions. Kids that use iPads early instead of going outside already have problems with developing proper eyesight. TVs made us watch things close, PCs made us watch things closer, then we had smartphones. Wearing glasses is the last step before we go full Borg.
  - palata 3y ago
    The difference here being that you don't focus on the glass, but further. So in terms of focus, that's closer to a PC screen than to a smartphone, right?
deleted 3y ago
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hprotagonist 3y ago
how well does it work when you live in a shipping container? asking for a friend.
- joezydeco 3y ago
  username checks out
sulam 3y ago
One step closer to Snowcrash.
- lampd1 3y ago
  No.
kojiromike 3y ago
It makes sense, kinda. Basically Nreal-style glasses with a headless computer. But why stop there? If you further separate the keyboard/mouse from the computer, then you not only allow people to choose their own HCI (trackball? tapwithus keyboard?) but they can bring their own input, too. Imagine all the benefits of the modularity of a desktop, with equal (if not better) portability of a laptop.
- sublinear 3y ago
  The problem with going wearable is the input. Nothing is as good as a full keyboard. The smallest reasonable solution I have found is a bluetooth keyboard for nontrivial use. Chorded keyboards and whatnot just aren't as good and believe me I've tried.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    I split keyboard is better than a full keyboard. Easier and faster to type, less strain. Can't work easily as a single piece though, and this severely limits its usability in travel / transport settings.
  - leovander 3y ago
    > Nothing is as good as a full keyboard. I don't know what the solution is, but I remember most decrying that a keyboard on a mobile device would not work and that they wanted their Blackberry keyboards, but Apple nailed it. Here's to seeing that the next input/interface will be.
    - sublinear 3y ago
      Actually I wouldn't mind having a physical keyboard on a phone again. On-screen keyboards are only a slight improvement. What they solved is everything else except typing speed and accuracy.
      - marssaxman 3y ago
        I never got used to glass keyboards, and gladly bought both the BlackBerry KeyOne and KeyTwo. They were so nice!
satvikpendem 3y ago
So, a Commodore but with AR?
- Ralfp 3y ago
  Commondore with battery and migraine triggers.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    You don't need to trigger migraines - it's perfectly OK to keep the "screen" fixed in reference to the user's head.
deleted 3y ago
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adamwong246 3y ago
It's a cyberdeck!
- politician 3y ago
  Just needs a Bigscreen Beyond VR headset https://www.bigscreenvr.com https://www.bigscreenvr.com
- lampd1 3y ago
  No.
sublinear 3y ago
https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/08/02/make-your-own-wearable-computer-with-a-raspberry-pi-zero/ https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/08/02/make-your-own-wearable-... Uhh... this is about as innovative as a much cheaper DIY project from many years ago? I think everyone with a vufine and a pi zero has done this before. As a bonus you get to use linux instead of android.
- lesona 3y ago
  In case anyone wants the original article the adafruit post is based on - [1]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/27/16035508/diy-wearable-computer-google-glass-raspberry-pi-instructions https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/27/16035508/d...
- palata 3y ago
  It doesn't have to be innovative. It has to work well.
  - sublinear 3y ago
    Huh? It does work well. It's just an ordinary raspberry pi. No modifications. I upgraded to using my pi 4 though. I just toss it in a workout armband along with a battery pack whenever I feel like it. Input device can be whatever you want. I usually use a bluetooth media remote since that's a keyboard with a trackpad that easily fits in my pocket. Real world battery life of almost 8 hours on a 10000mAh pack including the vufine plugged in at all times despite its internal battery. Maybe the only thing I sort of had to hack together was the stupid mount for the vufine which is a bit cheap and flimsy. This is a necessary mod anyway if you buy one of these and want to use it for anything serious. I dremeled out a channel on the magnetic mount and ran a velcro zip tie through that. Holds onto a pair of glasses very firmly now. I added a second velcro strap around the body of it for stability. I can even go out for a jog no problems. All the cables I use are thin and lightweight (meant for connecting HDMI on a drone). It's such a cheap and obvious idea that you can unregretfully drunk buy all the parts on amazon right now for probably less than I paid back then and you'd still just have a pile of otherwise useful stuff. The hunt for durable low-profile and L-angled cables needed to cram it all into a pocket is the expensive part, but you might even already have a pile of those.
Phenomenit 3y ago
I don’t get how you’re supposed to use the webcam? Maybe it applies your eyes on to your face?
- joezydeco 3y ago
  brought to you by the chief executive behind the Microsoft Kinect. It's a Kinect. It's a head tracker.
  - Phenomenit 3y ago
    The webcam?
- sgt 3y ago
  And voice input could use AI to simulate lip movement. I like it. This will look very natural.
twobitshifter 3y ago
Still looks like a prototype, but I hope we get to this as a common form factor. I take my laptop from office to couch and being able to have the screen size wherever would be great. I especially liked the ability to move the displays closer and farther away from you and pin windows. We’ll see if keyboards and trackpads get replaced by other inputs. The processing will likely move to your “phone”.
throw9away6 3y ago
I don’t really understand why my iPhone can’t just be a desktop. It should just hook up to a dock and turn into a desktop pc. It’s got the power to do everything I do I just need a monitor and keyboard hookup
- mywacaday 3y ago
  Samsung DEX works reasonably well for light office work and browsing. Haven't tried it on anything heavier.
  - dbtc 3y ago
    I just need a good terminal, tmux can do the heavy lifting.
    - vinceguidry 3y ago
      If that's really all you need, Termux on Android has you covered.
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        Any 8-bit microcontroller can power a terminal. That's all you need.
    - thesh4d0w 3y ago
      https://juicessh.com/ https://juicessh.com/
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Because Apple wants you to buy a Mac as well as an iPhone, as well as an iPad. On Android things are a bit better with Samsung's DEX, among others.
ChikkaChiChi 3y ago
I was tooling around with VR development when I tried developing directly from within the headset. Shockingly, the Quest 2 was streets ahead of the Index when it came to usability. It wasn't bad; it just wasn't something I would want to replace my current setup. I'm sure once the headsets hit a certain resolution, this will become much more common.
Twisell 3y ago
This is exactly the kind of concept I personally expect from Apple if the AR rumors materialize at the upcoming WWDC... maybe with a less clunky design. Now that I think about it, the existing Mission Control/Full screen App interface could make total sense for this UI. You could quite easily translate theses concepts to an AR deck bridging the gap between all existing Apps and this new interface.
- rwc 3y ago
  It's widely speculated that the Apple AR product will run iPad apps, and that stage manager was shipped last year as a multitasking environment well suited to AR.
- dfex 3y ago
  Exactly - Apple has all the pieces to absolutely nail the AR workspace experience. Reality OS Headset built on top of iOS (and MacOS) could easily allow bluetooth peripherals (keyboard/mouse) to pair with to their headset, and you've got multi-monitor workspace ready to go in a physical space that normally wouldn't accomodate it. Need more CPU/GPU than the Headset provides? Just use Sidecar to push your Mac desktop into AR and work on it as a 2D pane from there. I've used Virtual Desktop on the HP G2 Reverb, and while the quality was excellent, it's a bit clunky having to connect HDMI/Displayport loopback connectors to bring up multiple displays, and I'd much prefer to do my work in MacOS. A lot of the speculation around the new product seems to be around AR augmenting people moving around in public space, but the thing that gets me excited is what this might mean for the traditional desktop environment.
  - Twisell 3y ago
    And while we are at connecting the dots... One main problem with VR/AR is how the hell are you supposed to have online meeting while under a ski mask? The headset could include discreet lidar/else captor to track eyes movements. Meanwhile the base could track head movements and mouth expression from the outside. Bam you have every data points to animate a memoji. I guess through an API more advanced avatars could be designed by a game developer. But memoji would be a nice proof of concept. If all this materialize The sweet spot would be a Thunderbolt plug and a M1/M2 requirements. The 3000$ rumored price tag would refer to a complete setup including a mac mini but the headset alone could sell at a more affordable price range. (Disclaimer: this is a personal guess I have no access to insiders)
wedn3sday 3y ago
Basically my idea for a pico PC attached to an nreal air, but at a 2-3x markup.
mellosouls 3y ago
This review seems a little lacking without any mention of direct competitors to the headset like NReal Air and Bigscreens glasses. It dismisses Meta's workspaces on VR platforms without mentioning dedicated providers like Immersed as potentially better options. There is possibly a niche market for separates (glasses, keyboards, base units etc) that excel at their individual function within this emerging AR/VR space; it will be interesting to see if closely coupled products like this can match the excellence of specialists or if the focus on the convenience of all-in-one will lead to generalist jack-of-all-trades mediocrity. Interesting product anyway but would have liked more thought in the comparison products, and more consideration of the base unit as a potential driver for competitor headsets like the aforementioned.
soulofmischief 3y ago
Fascinating. Hard to know if it's worth it at this stage due to the 1080p per-eye resolution, but the second incarnation of this product ought to be a real game-changer. Also, I noted this passage: even with a very odd prescription (one eye is near-sighted, and one far-sighted) the default corrective lenses Sightful had available worked well. I've never encountered another person with this same eye disorder... It can be a real nuisance in certain cases. Nice to see this specifically addressed :)
- rbanffy 3y ago
  > Hard to know if it's worth it at this stage due to the 1080p per-eye resolution, I wonder if a normal camera can be used to track head movements with a better AR set. It'd be fun to add multiple extra screens around the main one on my laptop just by plugging in my glasses into the USB-C port. > I've never encountered another person with this same eye disorder... Before both my eyes went shortsighted I had it - it always felt like having one eye optimized for short distances and one for long ones, with the brain making the switch automatically like a smartphone stitches together an image using various lenses of various focal lengths. Still having different degrees of shortsightedness (a bit on the left and almost none on the right) is mildly annoying.
- Murrawhip 3y ago
  I have this. As a kid, it made catching a ball pretty difficult as my dominant eye would switch right as the ball gets to me. I like to think that's the reason, anyway.
- aviditas 3y ago
  There are dozens of us! My glasses and contact RXs always got a comment. Mine are on the extreme side in difference too, plus astigmatism in one eye and not the other. When contacts were finally available for me, I had to relearn how to live in a 3d space. I'm definitely going to follow the development of this as attention to edge cases and details like this are a good indicator of quality. It definitely has beta version battery life which I'd hope they'd address in a v2 as well.
  - deleted 3y ago
drewg123 3y ago
I've been dreaming of a product like this for years. I'm most productive in my office setup with large 42" + 24" monitors. When I travel I feel cramped and unproductive on my laptop. The laptop screen size does not seem to matter within the limits of what I'm comfortable lugging with me (nothing larger than a 15-16" mbp). So I've longed for some kind of VR or projected display from a laptop or mobile device. I signed up and really hope that I'm selected..
- bwb 3y ago
  Same here, a lot of my work requires wide screen and traveling means carrying and extra lcd. I hope this tech emerges!
- zamnos 3y ago
  Nreal sells glasses that are available today, on Amazon, and their Nebula virtual desktop app is available for Mac and Windows. The FoV on the Air isn't great, and if you wear corrective lenses you'll need to wear contacts, or get their prescription inserts, but that future is already here. It connects via USB-C to your existing computer, though dongles are available if you only have HDMI. The software isn't quite there yet, but it's still early days for it so it'll hopefully get better.
  - marco_craveiro 3y ago
    Nreal looks great! Shame Linux support is not there yet, but given SteamDeck it must be coming!
  - xrguy 3y ago
    i have nreal light too, for around $400 its really good. there is a community made api that can access glasses head tracking data, some made their own multi monitor app demos too, hope official one gets better later on too edit; spacetop is using nreal light (6dof)
  - shireboy 3y ago
    Does nebula virtual desktop support rdp and browser? I remote into dozens of machines for work and most other things are browser based- email, chat, etc.
mncharity 3y ago
For a reality check on those large virtual desktop illustrations, while I do like the (same hardware?) NReal Light's 1080p, its 52 deg FOV means looking at such a desktop through a smaller, not-curved, head-pointed portal. Picture holding up your laptop, so it appears 5 fists across diagonally, and then waving it around, likely synchronized with your neck. Which looks something vaguely like these:[1][2]. [1] Phone photo through NReal Light https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668/photo/1 https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668/pho... [2] DIY rough analogy https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1225091755667853318 https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1225091755667853318
- Jarmsy 3y ago
  Also note the 53-degree FOV they quote is for the diagonal angle! In all their press releases they're comically cagey about giving actual resolution and angle info for the display, which makes me distrust them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mncharity 3y ago
    > comically cagey [...] distrust them The less-than-transparent approach to specs has bothered me as well. But, at least as of a few years ago, their primary market was China, followed by SK and Japan. And was largely media consumption on phones. With competitors that would spin a wider fov, or more distant depth of focus, even with lower resolution, as "we're an N inch TV, not a mere M inch!". So, I've tagged it as culture mismatch, and consumer vs tiny tech. Several things they could have done differently, but unicorn dreams. Compared with my 15 inch laptop, the glasses too are 1080p, visually about ~50% wider/higher, and ~2 meters out instead of ~half. I might be using it now, if only for posture, but for having diy kludged the eyeglass lens snapons. Face comfort/fit... can be an issue. Folks who live in a one-screen tiling window manager, or in terminals, might use it as a simple monitor. Using a magnetic USB adapter, it's trivially snap-on/off.
- m463 3y ago
butz 3y ago
I would gladly buy a PC built into decent keyboard. Considering performance of ultra portable laptops and their size, it should be a perfect fit. I would even go for an option without battery, powered by USB-C by connecting this computer to external monitor. Monitor could act as a hub, thus reducing the need for ports, although there should be ample space for all the ports on the back of the keyboard.
- matthewfcarlson 3y ago
  I've been thinking about getting a cheap Mac mini and shoving inside a custom mechanical keyboard. Basically acting as a slab top with ridiculously low power draw for the performance.
- layer8 3y ago
  I’d go for a NUC (roughly 4.5" x 4.5" x 1.5") or similar plus separate keyboard as the next best and arguably more flexible solution.
  - butz 3y ago
    Unfortunately, last time I checked, Intel NUCs does not work from USB-C power and require external power brick.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      This is why I’d prefer a Mac mini as a little home server. The price difference is obviously a massive drawback, but the power brick Intel use is a right PITA.
- mhb 3y ago
  Thinkpad X220?
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  Lots of guys building raspberry pi based (or other similar SBCs) 'cyberdecks' some of which have no built in displays. Hell they made one of these: https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
theodric 3y ago
I've been doing this since December with a pair of Nreal Air glasses and alternately a MacBook and an SBC. It's okay-ish, but not great. Text rendering is sub-par requiring jacked-up font sizes, the viewport is fairly small, and if you're using the Nreal desktop for simulated multi-monitor configuration, the display jiggles a bit as the accelerometers catch up with your movements. It's sure as hell not worth the $2000 they're looking for. The SoC is old, too. Just get an 11g Framework, strip the LCD, plug a set of Nreals into a USB-C DP port, install Windows, and use the Nreal desktop. Boom: better, faster, newer, cheaper than $2000, and you can get it shipped right away.
- mosquitobiten 3y ago
  Can you get away with smaller font size if you have the cover on or it doesn't matter?
  - theodric 3y ago
    I'd say that the cover is more-or-less mandatory for productivity because you lose dimmer colors to the background without it, even with the OLED brightness jacked up to max. Then again, they're doing obvious PWM to achieve the lower-than-max brightness levels which creates flicker reminiscent of looking at an old CRT monitor running at 60Hz, which for me is a disincentive to run at anything less than max brightness.
crabbone 3y ago
Imagine wanting to show something on your screen to someone else... I mean, technically, it's probably possible to connect multiple glasses, but this model seems like it's only one pair per laptop.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  You don’t need multiple glasses. The article states that it has a DisplayPort likely for that very issue
lagniappe 3y ago
I use the nReal for this currently, it's great. The glasses are comfy, and I can have blockers on the front or see through to other things. You can be full wearable right now for less than you think.
- hiatus 3y ago
  How long are your sessions on average? Is this your daily driver or just for certain occasions (travel, etc)?
  - lagniappe 3y ago
    About 6hrs per day, most days, its the same motion as using bifocals but in reverse. I keep up documentation that i can see through, and/or whatever is playing to break up the silence.
- daniel_reetz 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure the glasses in the article are nReal.
dybber 3y ago
Would allow laptops with ergonomic keyboards! That would be an interesting product.
- lampd1 3y ago
  there's... there's nothing preventing this today... What are you on about?
  - dybber 3y ago
    The flat screen seems to make it impossible to make the curved base of an ergonomic keyboard. I have never seen a laptop with a curved keyboard and thus always carry my ergonomic keyboard with me when I bring my laptop to conferences etc.
agumonkey 3y ago
Some people are massively thinking this is gonna be the next step. It's an interesting take.
- sergioisidoro 3y ago
  I love the compact form of my laptop, hate to be constantly looking down. I have a super bulky screen just to have a few windows side by side. If (and that's a big if) this would be able to achieve 60hz 4k equivalent, its hands down the next step.
lab14 3y ago
Is anyone aware of any studies done on the long term effects of beaming photons to your retina from that close distance?
- explorigin 3y ago
  Distance doesn't matter for a fatigue perspective. Light intensity and time are big factors, though. Focusing on a short distance for a long period of time has been associated with myopia (though I'm not sure if they've established a causal link). I didn't really answer your question. Sorry. No I'm not aware.
- mongol 3y ago
  Not aware. But I was once examined by an eye doctor after having been exposed to a quite intensive amount of light. He said that during eye surgery they used very powerful light. So I think the bar is quite high, in comparison to AR glasses
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Photons don't care about distance.
RalfWausE 3y ago
I would say the cyberdeck has finally arried...
- lampd1 3y ago
  No.
manicennui 3y ago
$2k for an underpowered ARM laptop running Android seems like a good way to make sure this fails.
beambot 3y ago
This is the simple "metaverse" product Facebook should've started with. I just want a full-sized display headset that hooks into USB-C port and emulates a 4k external monitor
croes 3y ago
I doubt that the resolution is high enough for long text reading. Sounds like the idea of a Kickstarter project, sounds good but doesn't really work
lampd1 3y ago
[flagged]
- seanhunter 3y ago
  I don't think it's valuable to call people who are excited about this "simps". People on HN are very frequently tech-enthusiasts who are very optimistic about future possibilities of these technologies. You may disagree but that doesn't give you the right to call them names.
  - lampd1 3y ago
    [flagged]
SergeAx 3y ago
But... as a business user I need the camera for my endless Zoom calls much more!
Jishin 3y ago
Bought a Viture One over Kickstarter, got a great pair of XR glasses, with a dial for up to -5 on each individual eye, plus a docking battery and a neckband with Android. Used them with my work Samsung S21 and Dex plus a Bluetooth Logitech keyboard. Total cost, since the phone was free, around 600$. Why would I pay 2000$ for half a laptop keyboard with less power than my phone?!?
desireco42 3y ago
This is perfect for me... I love idea of being laid back with my feet up and having a HUGE screen to do stuff. I get it is not perfect screen, but I can see how this will get better. I might not be early adopter as 2K laptop one, but the very next one, totally count on me. The only issue... Zoom meetings... It is weird if you have headset on.
- ajb 3y ago
  Yes, zoom meetings are a big issue with this, especially with business travelers who generally work the kind of roles where they have loads of them. An avatar just isn't going to cut it for a sales guy or exec who relies on their charisma to grease the wheels.
crooked-v 3y ago
It's an interesting idea, but 1080p per eye is way, way too low a resolution to actually use for most people.
- pmontra 3y ago
  Is "most" an alias for "more than 50%"? I don't think so in general, given the amount of cheap laptops I see around. Maybe it's true for the people that are willing to pay $2000. What's odd with this device is that it runs Android. I used Android with a keyboard and a mouse in the past but it was a sub par desktop environment and for $2000 one should make sure to be able to have all files, mail, etc to work on available from Android.
  - RugnirViking 3y ago
    "most" people with 1080p laptops aren't stretching that 1080p to cover their entire field of vision and only displaying windows in small fractions of that. There's a reason VR is at minimum 4k per eye, and even then struggles with legible text
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      They're not covering the entireffield of vision. The fov is very restricted, that's why they can get away with a 1080p display. Tbis replaces one problem for another. I'd definitely have to try it out before I'd consider buying something with a pov this small.
nologic01 3y ago
I don't know if the AR/VR space will ever get functional as a replacement for standard monitors but there is an interesting bifurcation: some screens are becoming more "real" (touch screens) and some are becoming almost completely dematerialized (projections in our visual field). I still think conventional large monitors will survive both these new "screen forms" for real work, because the accuracy and amount of information is unbeatable versus an AR/VR set and its not practical to be interacting with a large touch screen.
- Koffiepoeder 3y ago
  I fly long distances regularly for my job. One of the things I struggle with is back & neck pain because of working on a tiny, constrained laptop that forces me to look down. Of course in the office or at home I have a decent, ergonomic set-up, but for people that are constantly on the move I could sincerely see an AR-first device as a way of improving quality of life. For this reason alone I'm considering buying one. The only thing that's withholding me is that I prefer to _try_ devices in real life before ordering stuff like this. I've been disappointed far too many times when ordering stuff from the interwebs :)
  - nologic01 3y ago
    Your use case could probably be solved fairly simply by a detachable screen that is attached on the seat in front of you. This is assuming you touch type. The only thing that might be missing is a universal means to hang the screen without disturbing the folks sitting in front of you. Sounds like a kickstarter type project :-)
reportgunner 3y ago
> Laptops have a problem: their screen. Stopped reading right there.
dguest 3y ago
Great, now drop the keyboard and it will be much more portable. Unfortunately you'd need a compact input device with good haptic feedback. Obviously it has a keyboard [1], but when the screen fits so nicely over it dropping the screen doesn't seem like such a huge bonus. As it stands I'd probably prefer a screen for the 2% of my computing time where I actually want my world to be "public". Still, very cool to see things moving this way! [1]: Physical buttons are a million times better than a touch screen because you don't have to look at them to know what you are doing.
- bartislartfast 3y ago
  > but when the screen fits so nicely over it dropping the screen doesn't seem like such a huge bonus. > As it stands I'd probably prefer a screen for the 2% of my computing time where I actually want my world to be "public". Yes. Why drop the screen at all? No reason you couldn't have glasses like this on a regular laptop, adding a second screen "behind" your main display. Or just close it to about 45 degrees. I love the idea of a private display, or a floating multiscreen layout, but I dont want to sacrifice the regular screen for that.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  > now drop the keyboard Ok but then you basically have a phone with some glasses and a tracker. > Sightful built the Spacetop around a Snapdragon 865 from 2019, rather than the more advanced Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, for example. Specs include 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage Wait, it actually already is a smartphone, at least in specs anyway. Who'd go for a laptop without at least half a TB of storage these days? And 8GB of RAM, that's like a decent laptop from almost a decade ago.
  - goosedragons 3y ago
    Apple customers?
Tepix 3y ago
It should have a split keyboard and thus be half the size.
marco_craveiro 3y ago
Pretty cool! From having used immersed [1] for a little bit, I really enjoyed having my desktop inside VR. However, the weight of Oculus was just impracticable, could not do an 8 hour shift with it. This sounds much more promising. However, instead of a laptop this should be a stand alone device one could plug in to existing PCs / Laptops methinks... [1] https://immersed.com/ https://immersed.com/
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
anonzzzies 3y ago
I have been doing this for months now with the nreal air, my phone and a portable keyboard with trackpad (I use keyboard shortcuts for anything anyway). It works really well and I haven't taken my laptop anywhere for 2 months or so. It is not perfect, but it's much better than lugging my laptop everywhere (no matter what it weighs; it's the dimensions). And the battery life is outstanding (it's that of my phone and charges as quickly which is much faster than my laptop). I either use github workspaces or vnc to work. VNC is outstanding as it burns minimum battery on the phone and you have a powerful server desktop. Also; it's much more private; no-one can see your screen (unless you share) and when you put the sun light protector on, no-one starts talking with you. It's a very clear sign of ; I am busy. The resolution of the monitor (I run DEX as the AR on this thing is not good enough (yet)) could be higher, but that's just a matter of time, and, as it seems to progress now, not a lot of time at that.
- anaisbetts 3y ago
  Same, a Steam Deck with an NReal Air and a slim Bluetooth keyboard/mouse is actually a smaller Linux laptop than a laptop (though admittedly a bit more cumbersome for quick usage vs just flipping open a laptop).
- paraknight 3y ago
  There are dozens of us! I use the phone as trackpad when I need to. Small BT keyboard, but thinking of learning the Charachorder. Nreal Air + S22 Ultra DeX + AVNC + proot Ubuntu (via Andronix) + VSCode with the Remote Development extension has been my daily driver for almost 6 months now I think. I even play games on this via GeForce Now and a Switch Pro controller, even voice chat on Discord at the same time and it doesn't break a sweat.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    The charachorder seems interesting but USB , not BLE, so not sure how that would work with this setup?
- FullyFunctional 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. I was exactly hoping to find something like this in the comments. I had forgotten about the nreal but it looks more useful than the specialized notebook.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
> Priced at $2,000, the Spacetop is purpose-built as a business tool, with an optimized Arm processor, AOSP (open-source Android) operating system, and, of course, the custom headset. Interesting choice for what seems more like a laptop then a tablet — would have expected that to run ChromeOS or a standard linux distro.
- ianai 3y ago
  Could have been windows and actual hardware. I’m guessing they’re offsetting the price of the headset with the dismal specs.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    I guess if want to do something this different you want an open source platform so that you can design a user interface that makes sense for VR.
AmigoCharlie 3y ago
It looks a little bit idiotic to me. Imagine how much effort should your eyes take in order to keep focus on all these minute elements, windows, fonts, and so on, which happen to be also so near to your eyes. I think that after 30 minutes looking at all this minute mess, your eyes will just shut down for overload and fatigue.
jiveturkey 3y ago
neat. gave me an atari 800XL vibe. battery power aside. the latest inside news on the apple "XR" headset is that the fight was for portability vs beaming the info from a mac mini. that latter of course having much more power and being able to do much more, at the expense of being tethered. it will be most interesting to see how this plays out. clearly the spacetop is more of a POC build level, but for anyone not Apple it's smart to test the waters this way.

326 points by advance512 3y ago

So, like an 80s home computer, but with a VR/AR set instead of a screen. Could look like a Sinclair QL, at least.

> Priced at $2,000, the Spacetop is purpose-built as a business tool, with an optimized Arm processor, AOSP (open-source Android) operating system, and, of course, the custom headset. But you’ll need to act fast: Sightful is inviting just 1,000 early adopters to purchase the final hardware, enticing them with the opportunity to provide feedback on subsequent products. It sports a Snapdragon 865. I don't see anything here that could possibly justify that price. You're basically just paying for exclusivity as a beta tester.

prox 3y ago
Android makes it a hard pass for me. Give a me a decent Linux and I will give it a look.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  i'm not sure, other than the battery solution that you couldn't get this through nreal glasses and a raspberry pi 400.

billconan 3y ago

this is a cool concept, but I have tried some VR devices, none of them are clear enough to be a monitor replacement. I also don't know the long term impact of these devices to my eye sight.

drcongo 3y ago
My vision is only in perfect(ish) focus at the exact distance that I sit from my computer screen. I can't imagine that this is a coincidence.
- dr_kiszonka 3y ago
  It probably isn't but there are simple exercises to help ameliorate it†. (The problem is that I am frequently too lazy or too busy to do them.) †unless, in your case, the arrow of causality between vision and computer screen distance is in the opposite direction.
  - ChrisLTD 3y ago
    what exercises should we be doing?
    - mtsr 3y ago
      The obvious one is taking regular breaks from the screen. Focus on things at least 10-30 meters away, so your eyes can relax. Also, with a good lens setup or with direct projection, VR/AR headsets could theoretically set the focus distance at any distance or even dynamically change it. This would also solve the vergence-accommodation conflict with current headsets.
clnq 3y ago
Most VR headsets on the market are not clear enough to display text. For example, Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 both have pixel densities around 21 pixels per degree. While a 27" monitor running at 2560x1440 at an arm's length (40 degrees horizontal FOV) will have a pixel density of around 64 pixels per degree. 64 PPD is very legible and usable for office applications, chatting, and similar things. One can see individual pixels in very aliased and high-contrast images, but not otherwise. In contrast, 21 PPD is not great - most text will be either very blurry or aliased on an equivalent virtual display. The math is simple: 21 pixels per degree x 40 degrees (which is 1/3rd of the human eye's horizontal FOV including peripheral vision), equals a display resolution of about 840x473 at 16:9, or close to 420p. Clearly, this is not comfortable to do office work with. SpaceTop has a relatively low FOV but much higher pixel density of about 46 pixels per degree. It's about twice as good as what Meta Quest Pro and Quest 2 can do. It also seems to have individual floating apps rather than entire screens, but if we would assume that one would like to have a typical experience roughly equivalent to a 27" 16:9 screen at an arm's length, that virtual screen would be at about 1840x1035. I think this is right at the edge of what I would consider comfortable. Most graphics, including text, would probably be slightly blurry, and anti-aliasing blur or aliasing artefacts would be clearly seen. But I would not get too frustrated by it. That's a trend with AR glasses when compared to VR headsets - they have narrower FOV and higher pixel densities. So they are overall better for non-immersive office-like applications. Still, the holy grail of productivity AR headsets is something like 60 PPD and at least 90 degrees horizontal FOV x 60 degrees vertical FOV. At that point, I would say the differences between our actual vision and what can be shown on the glasses in terms of resolution would be not significant, assuming the eye balls always point within 30 degrees of the center of the AR display. But this means a resolution of around 5400x3600 per eye. Or approaching 12K in total for both eyes combined. SpaceTop is probably much more usable for office work than many of the VR headsets on the market. And it seems like they're aiming for a similar experience to having one or two 1080p 27" screens about a meter away from one's face. I think it's right on the border between fun tech and practical tech. Slightly higher PPD and FOV would push it more into the territory of practical tech for me, someone who writes and codes while travelling. Now it sounds good but not revolutionary.

danjoredd 3y ago

Ok but will Linux run well on it?

grishka 3y ago
It runs Android out of the box, which is based on Linux.

rqtwteye 3y ago

I think in principle this is a great idea and maybe the future. I just wonder what this will do to your eyes if used the whole day.

nntwozz 3y ago
Probably not great if you compare to previous inventions. Kids that use iPads early instead of going outside already have problems with developing proper eyesight. TVs made us watch things close, PCs made us watch things closer, then we had smartphones. Wearing glasses is the last step before we go full Borg.
- palata 3y ago
  The difference here being that you don't focus on the glass, but further. So in terms of focus, that's closer to a PC screen than to a smartphone, right?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hprotagonist 3y ago

how well does it work when you live in a shipping container? asking for a friend.

joezydeco 3y ago
username checks out

sulam 3y ago

One step closer to Snowcrash.

lampd1 3y ago
No.

kojiromike 3y ago

It makes sense, kinda. Basically Nreal-style glasses with a headless computer. But why stop there? If you further separate the keyboard/mouse from the computer, then you not only allow people to choose their own HCI (trackball? tapwithus keyboard?) but they can bring their own input, too. Imagine all the benefits of the modularity of a desktop, with equal (if not better) portability of a laptop.

sublinear 3y ago
The problem with going wearable is the input. Nothing is as good as a full keyboard. The smallest reasonable solution I have found is a bluetooth keyboard for nontrivial use. Chorded keyboards and whatnot just aren't as good and believe me I've tried.
- nine_k 3y ago
  I split keyboard is better than a full keyboard. Easier and faster to type, less strain. Can't work easily as a single piece though, and this severely limits its usability in travel / transport settings.
- leovander 3y ago
  > Nothing is as good as a full keyboard. I don't know what the solution is, but I remember most decrying that a keyboard on a mobile device would not work and that they wanted their Blackberry keyboards, but Apple nailed it. Here's to seeing that the next input/interface will be.
  - sublinear 3y ago
    Actually I wouldn't mind having a physical keyboard on a phone again. On-screen keyboards are only a slight improvement. What they solved is everything else except typing speed and accuracy.
    - marssaxman 3y ago
      I never got used to glass keyboards, and gladly bought both the BlackBerry KeyOne and KeyTwo. They were so nice!

satvikpendem 3y ago

So, a Commodore but with AR?

Ralfp 3y ago
Commondore with battery and migraine triggers.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  You don't need to trigger migraines - it's perfectly OK to keep the "screen" fixed in reference to the user's head.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

adamwong246 3y ago

It's a cyberdeck!

politician 3y ago
Just needs a Bigscreen Beyond VR headset https://www.bigscreenvr.com https://www.bigscreenvr.com
lampd1 3y ago
No.

sublinear 3y ago

https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/08/02/make-your-own-wearable-computer-with-a-raspberry-pi-zero/ https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/08/02/make-your-own-wearable-... Uhh... this is about as innovative as a much cheaper DIY project from many years ago? I think everyone with a vufine and a pi zero has done this before. As a bonus you get to use linux instead of android.

lesona 3y ago
In case anyone wants the original article the adafruit post is based on - [1]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/27/16035508/diy-wearable-computer-google-glass-raspberry-pi-instructions https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/27/16035508/d...
palata 3y ago
It doesn't have to be innovative. It has to work well.
- sublinear 3y ago
  Huh? It does work well. It's just an ordinary raspberry pi. No modifications. I upgraded to using my pi 4 though. I just toss it in a workout armband along with a battery pack whenever I feel like it. Input device can be whatever you want. I usually use a bluetooth media remote since that's a keyboard with a trackpad that easily fits in my pocket. Real world battery life of almost 8 hours on a 10000mAh pack including the vufine plugged in at all times despite its internal battery. Maybe the only thing I sort of had to hack together was the stupid mount for the vufine which is a bit cheap and flimsy. This is a necessary mod anyway if you buy one of these and want to use it for anything serious. I dremeled out a channel on the magnetic mount and ran a velcro zip tie through that. Holds onto a pair of glasses very firmly now. I added a second velcro strap around the body of it for stability. I can even go out for a jog no problems. All the cables I use are thin and lightweight (meant for connecting HDMI on a drone). It's such a cheap and obvious idea that you can unregretfully drunk buy all the parts on amazon right now for probably less than I paid back then and you'd still just have a pile of otherwise useful stuff. The hunt for durable low-profile and L-angled cables needed to cram it all into a pocket is the expensive part, but you might even already have a pile of those.

Phenomenit 3y ago

I don’t get how you’re supposed to use the webcam? Maybe it applies your eyes on to your face?

joezydeco 3y ago
brought to you by the chief executive behind the Microsoft Kinect. It's a Kinect. It's a head tracker.
- Phenomenit 3y ago
  The webcam?
sgt 3y ago
And voice input could use AI to simulate lip movement. I like it. This will look very natural.

twobitshifter 3y ago

Still looks like a prototype, but I hope we get to this as a common form factor. I take my laptop from office to couch and being able to have the screen size wherever would be great. I especially liked the ability to move the displays closer and farther away from you and pin windows. We’ll see if keyboards and trackpads get replaced by other inputs. The processing will likely move to your “phone”.

throw9away6 3y ago

I don’t really understand why my iPhone can’t just be a desktop. It should just hook up to a dock and turn into a desktop pc. It’s got the power to do everything I do I just need a monitor and keyboard hookup

mywacaday 3y ago
Samsung DEX works reasonably well for light office work and browsing. Haven't tried it on anything heavier.
- dbtc 3y ago
  I just need a good terminal, tmux can do the heavy lifting.
  - vinceguidry 3y ago
    If that's really all you need, Termux on Android has you covered.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      Any 8-bit microcontroller can power a terminal. That's all you need.
  - thesh4d0w 3y ago
    https://juicessh.com/ https://juicessh.com/
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
satvikpendem 3y ago
Because Apple wants you to buy a Mac as well as an iPhone, as well as an iPad. On Android things are a bit better with Samsung's DEX, among others.

ChikkaChiChi 3y ago

I was tooling around with VR development when I tried developing directly from within the headset. Shockingly, the Quest 2 was streets ahead of the Index when it came to usability. It wasn't bad; it just wasn't something I would want to replace my current setup. I'm sure once the headsets hit a certain resolution, this will become much more common.

Twisell 3y ago

This is exactly the kind of concept I personally expect from Apple if the AR rumors materialize at the upcoming WWDC... maybe with a less clunky design. Now that I think about it, the existing Mission Control/Full screen App interface could make total sense for this UI. You could quite easily translate theses concepts to an AR deck bridging the gap between all existing Apps and this new interface.

rwc 3y ago
It's widely speculated that the Apple AR product will run iPad apps, and that stage manager was shipped last year as a multitasking environment well suited to AR.
dfex 3y ago
Exactly - Apple has all the pieces to absolutely nail the AR workspace experience. Reality OS Headset built on top of iOS (and MacOS) could easily allow bluetooth peripherals (keyboard/mouse) to pair with to their headset, and you've got multi-monitor workspace ready to go in a physical space that normally wouldn't accomodate it. Need more CPU/GPU than the Headset provides? Just use Sidecar to push your Mac desktop into AR and work on it as a 2D pane from there. I've used Virtual Desktop on the HP G2 Reverb, and while the quality was excellent, it's a bit clunky having to connect HDMI/Displayport loopback connectors to bring up multiple displays, and I'd much prefer to do my work in MacOS. A lot of the speculation around the new product seems to be around AR augmenting people moving around in public space, but the thing that gets me excited is what this might mean for the traditional desktop environment.
- Twisell 3y ago
  And while we are at connecting the dots... One main problem with VR/AR is how the hell are you supposed to have online meeting while under a ski mask? The headset could include discreet lidar/else captor to track eyes movements. Meanwhile the base could track head movements and mouth expression from the outside. Bam you have every data points to animate a memoji. I guess through an API more advanced avatars could be designed by a game developer. But memoji would be a nice proof of concept. If all this materialize The sweet spot would be a Thunderbolt plug and a M1/M2 requirements. The 3000$ rumored price tag would refer to a complete setup including a mac mini but the headset alone could sell at a more affordable price range. (Disclaimer: this is a personal guess I have no access to insiders)

wedn3sday 3y ago

Basically my idea for a pico PC attached to an nreal air, but at a 2-3x markup.

mellosouls 3y ago

This review seems a little lacking without any mention of direct competitors to the headset like NReal Air and Bigscreens glasses. It dismisses Meta's workspaces on VR platforms without mentioning dedicated providers like Immersed as potentially better options. There is possibly a niche market for separates (glasses, keyboards, base units etc) that excel at their individual function within this emerging AR/VR space; it will be interesting to see if closely coupled products like this can match the excellence of specialists or if the focus on the convenience of all-in-one will lead to generalist jack-of-all-trades mediocrity. Interesting product anyway but would have liked more thought in the comparison products, and more consideration of the base unit as a potential driver for competitor headsets like the aforementioned.

soulofmischief 3y ago

Fascinating. Hard to know if it's worth it at this stage due to the 1080p per-eye resolution, but the second incarnation of this product ought to be a real game-changer. Also, I noted this passage: even with a very odd prescription (one eye is near-sighted, and one far-sighted) the default corrective lenses Sightful had available worked well. I've never encountered another person with this same eye disorder... It can be a real nuisance in certain cases. Nice to see this specifically addressed :)

rbanffy 3y ago
> Hard to know if it's worth it at this stage due to the 1080p per-eye resolution, I wonder if a normal camera can be used to track head movements with a better AR set. It'd be fun to add multiple extra screens around the main one on my laptop just by plugging in my glasses into the USB-C port. > I've never encountered another person with this same eye disorder... Before both my eyes went shortsighted I had it - it always felt like having one eye optimized for short distances and one for long ones, with the brain making the switch automatically like a smartphone stitches together an image using various lenses of various focal lengths. Still having different degrees of shortsightedness (a bit on the left and almost none on the right) is mildly annoying.
Murrawhip 3y ago
I have this. As a kid, it made catching a ball pretty difficult as my dominant eye would switch right as the ball gets to me. I like to think that's the reason, anyway.
aviditas 3y ago
There are dozens of us! My glasses and contact RXs always got a comment. Mine are on the extreme side in difference too, plus astigmatism in one eye and not the other. When contacts were finally available for me, I had to relearn how to live in a 3d space. I'm definitely going to follow the development of this as attention to edge cases and details like this are a good indicator of quality. It definitely has beta version battery life which I'd hope they'd address in a v2 as well.
- deleted 3y ago

drewg123 3y ago

I've been dreaming of a product like this for years. I'm most productive in my office setup with large 42" + 24" monitors. When I travel I feel cramped and unproductive on my laptop. The laptop screen size does not seem to matter within the limits of what I'm comfortable lugging with me (nothing larger than a 15-16" mbp). So I've longed for some kind of VR or projected display from a laptop or mobile device. I signed up and really hope that I'm selected..

bwb 3y ago
Same here, a lot of my work requires wide screen and traveling means carrying and extra lcd. I hope this tech emerges!
zamnos 3y ago
Nreal sells glasses that are available today, on Amazon, and their Nebula virtual desktop app is available for Mac and Windows. The FoV on the Air isn't great, and if you wear corrective lenses you'll need to wear contacts, or get their prescription inserts, but that future is already here. It connects via USB-C to your existing computer, though dongles are available if you only have HDMI. The software isn't quite there yet, but it's still early days for it so it'll hopefully get better.
- marco_craveiro 3y ago
  Nreal looks great! Shame Linux support is not there yet, but given SteamDeck it must be coming!
- xrguy 3y ago
  i have nreal light too, for around $400 its really good. there is a community made api that can access glasses head tracking data, some made their own multi monitor app demos too, hope official one gets better later on too edit; spacetop is using nreal light (6dof)
- shireboy 3y ago
  Does nebula virtual desktop support rdp and browser? I remote into dozens of machines for work and most other things are browser based- email, chat, etc.

mncharity 3y ago

For a reality check on those large virtual desktop illustrations, while I do like the (same hardware?) NReal Light's 1080p, its 52 deg FOV means looking at such a desktop through a smaller, not-curved, head-pointed portal. Picture holding up your laptop, so it appears 5 fists across diagonally, and then waving it around, likely synchronized with your neck. Which looks something vaguely like these:[1][2]. [1] Phone photo through NReal Light https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668/photo/1 https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1397553615372529668/pho... [2] DIY rough analogy https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1225091755667853318 https://twitter.com/mncharity/status/1225091755667853318

Jarmsy 3y ago
Also note the 53-degree FOV they quote is for the diagonal angle! In all their press releases they're comically cagey about giving actual resolution and angle info for the display, which makes me distrust them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mncharity 3y ago
  > comically cagey [...] distrust them The less-than-transparent approach to specs has bothered me as well. But, at least as of a few years ago, their primary market was China, followed by SK and Japan. And was largely media consumption on phones. With competitors that would spin a wider fov, or more distant depth of focus, even with lower resolution, as "we're an N inch TV, not a mere M inch!". So, I've tagged it as culture mismatch, and consumer vs tiny tech. Several things they could have done differently, but unicorn dreams. Compared with my 15 inch laptop, the glasses too are 1080p, visually about ~50% wider/higher, and ~2 meters out instead of ~half. I might be using it now, if only for posture, but for having diy kludged the eyeglass lens snapons. Face comfort/fit... can be an issue. Folks who live in a one-screen tiling window manager, or in terminals, might use it as a simple monitor. Using a magnetic USB adapter, it's trivially snap-on/off.
m463 3y ago

butz 3y ago

I would gladly buy a PC built into decent keyboard. Considering performance of ultra portable laptops and their size, it should be a perfect fit. I would even go for an option without battery, powered by USB-C by connecting this computer to external monitor. Monitor could act as a hub, thus reducing the need for ports, although there should be ample space for all the ports on the back of the keyboard.

matthewfcarlson 3y ago
I've been thinking about getting a cheap Mac mini and shoving inside a custom mechanical keyboard. Basically acting as a slab top with ridiculously low power draw for the performance.
layer8 3y ago
I’d go for a NUC (roughly 4.5" x 4.5" x 1.5") or similar plus separate keyboard as the next best and arguably more flexible solution.
- butz 3y ago
  Unfortunately, last time I checked, Intel NUCs does not work from USB-C power and require external power brick.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    This is why I’d prefer a Mac mini as a little home server. The price difference is obviously a massive drawback, but the power brick Intel use is a right PITA.
mhb 3y ago
Thinkpad X220?
sleepybrett 3y ago
Lots of guys building raspberry pi based (or other similar SBCs) 'cyberdecks' some of which have no built in displays. Hell they made one of these: https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/

theodric 3y ago

I've been doing this since December with a pair of Nreal Air glasses and alternately a MacBook and an SBC. It's okay-ish, but not great. Text rendering is sub-par requiring jacked-up font sizes, the viewport is fairly small, and if you're using the Nreal desktop for simulated multi-monitor configuration, the display jiggles a bit as the accelerometers catch up with your movements. It's sure as hell not worth the $2000 they're looking for. The SoC is old, too. Just get an 11g Framework, strip the LCD, plug a set of Nreals into a USB-C DP port, install Windows, and use the Nreal desktop. Boom: better, faster, newer, cheaper than $2000, and you can get it shipped right away.

mosquitobiten 3y ago
Can you get away with smaller font size if you have the cover on or it doesn't matter?
- theodric 3y ago
  I'd say that the cover is more-or-less mandatory for productivity because you lose dimmer colors to the background without it, even with the OLED brightness jacked up to max. Then again, they're doing obvious PWM to achieve the lower-than-max brightness levels which creates flicker reminiscent of looking at an old CRT monitor running at 60Hz, which for me is a disincentive to run at anything less than max brightness.

crabbone 3y ago

Imagine wanting to show something on your screen to someone else... I mean, technically, it's probably possible to connect multiple glasses, but this model seems like it's only one pair per laptop.

chaostheory 3y ago
You don’t need multiple glasses. The article states that it has a DisplayPort likely for that very issue

lagniappe 3y ago

I use the nReal for this currently, it's great. The glasses are comfy, and I can have blockers on the front or see through to other things. You can be full wearable right now for less than you think.

hiatus 3y ago
How long are your sessions on average? Is this your daily driver or just for certain occasions (travel, etc)?
- lagniappe 3y ago
  About 6hrs per day, most days, its the same motion as using bifocals but in reverse. I keep up documentation that i can see through, and/or whatever is playing to break up the silence.
daniel_reetz 3y ago
I'm pretty sure the glasses in the article are nReal.

dybber 3y ago

Would allow laptops with ergonomic keyboards! That would be an interesting product.

lampd1 3y ago
there's... there's nothing preventing this today... What are you on about?
- dybber 3y ago
  The flat screen seems to make it impossible to make the curved base of an ergonomic keyboard. I have never seen a laptop with a curved keyboard and thus always carry my ergonomic keyboard with me when I bring my laptop to conferences etc.

agumonkey 3y ago

Some people are massively thinking this is gonna be the next step. It's an interesting take.

sergioisidoro 3y ago
I love the compact form of my laptop, hate to be constantly looking down. I have a super bulky screen just to have a few windows side by side. If (and that's a big if) this would be able to achieve 60hz 4k equivalent, its hands down the next step.

lab14 3y ago

Is anyone aware of any studies done on the long term effects of beaming photons to your retina from that close distance?

explorigin 3y ago
Distance doesn't matter for a fatigue perspective. Light intensity and time are big factors, though. Focusing on a short distance for a long period of time has been associated with myopia (though I'm not sure if they've established a causal link). I didn't really answer your question. Sorry. No I'm not aware.
mongol 3y ago
Not aware. But I was once examined by an eye doctor after having been exposed to a quite intensive amount of light. He said that during eye surgery they used very powerful light. So I think the bar is quite high, in comparison to AR glasses
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Photons don't care about distance.

RalfWausE 3y ago

I would say the cyberdeck has finally arried...

lampd1 3y ago
No.

manicennui 3y ago

$2k for an underpowered ARM laptop running Android seems like a good way to make sure this fails.

beambot 3y ago

This is the simple "metaverse" product Facebook should've started with. I just want a full-sized display headset that hooks into USB-C port and emulates a 4k external monitor

croes 3y ago

I doubt that the resolution is high enough for long text reading. Sounds like the idea of a Kickstarter project, sounds good but doesn't really work

lampd1 3y ago

[flagged]

seanhunter 3y ago
I don't think it's valuable to call people who are excited about this "simps". People on HN are very frequently tech-enthusiasts who are very optimistic about future possibilities of these technologies. You may disagree but that doesn't give you the right to call them names.
- lampd1 3y ago
  [flagged]

SergeAx 3y ago

But... as a business user I need the camera for my endless Zoom calls much more!

Jishin 3y ago

Bought a Viture One over Kickstarter, got a great pair of XR glasses, with a dial for up to -5 on each individual eye, plus a docking battery and a neckband with Android. Used them with my work Samsung S21 and Dex plus a Bluetooth Logitech keyboard. Total cost, since the phone was free, around 600$. Why would I pay 2000$ for half a laptop keyboard with less power than my phone?!?

desireco42 3y ago

This is perfect for me... I love idea of being laid back with my feet up and having a HUGE screen to do stuff. I get it is not perfect screen, but I can see how this will get better. I might not be early adopter as 2K laptop one, but the very next one, totally count on me. The only issue... Zoom meetings... It is weird if you have headset on.

ajb 3y ago
Yes, zoom meetings are a big issue with this, especially with business travelers who generally work the kind of roles where they have loads of them. An avatar just isn't going to cut it for a sales guy or exec who relies on their charisma to grease the wheels.

crooked-v 3y ago

It's an interesting idea, but 1080p per eye is way, way too low a resolution to actually use for most people.

pmontra 3y ago
Is "most" an alias for "more than 50%"? I don't think so in general, given the amount of cheap laptops I see around. Maybe it's true for the people that are willing to pay $2000. What's odd with this device is that it runs Android. I used Android with a keyboard and a mouse in the past but it was a sub par desktop environment and for $2000 one should make sure to be able to have all files, mail, etc to work on available from Android.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  "most" people with 1080p laptops aren't stretching that 1080p to cover their entire field of vision and only displaying windows in small fractions of that. There's a reason VR is at minimum 4k per eye, and even then struggles with legible text
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    They're not covering the entireffield of vision. The fov is very restricted, that's why they can get away with a 1080p display. Tbis replaces one problem for another. I'd definitely have to try it out before I'd consider buying something with a pov this small.

nologic01 3y ago

I don't know if the AR/VR space will ever get functional as a replacement for standard monitors but there is an interesting bifurcation: some screens are becoming more "real" (touch screens) and some are becoming almost completely dematerialized (projections in our visual field). I still think conventional large monitors will survive both these new "screen forms" for real work, because the accuracy and amount of information is unbeatable versus an AR/VR set and its not practical to be interacting with a large touch screen.

Koffiepoeder 3y ago
I fly long distances regularly for my job. One of the things I struggle with is back & neck pain because of working on a tiny, constrained laptop that forces me to look down. Of course in the office or at home I have a decent, ergonomic set-up, but for people that are constantly on the move I could sincerely see an AR-first device as a way of improving quality of life. For this reason alone I'm considering buying one. The only thing that's withholding me is that I prefer to _try_ devices in real life before ordering stuff like this. I've been disappointed far too many times when ordering stuff from the interwebs :)
- nologic01 3y ago
  Your use case could probably be solved fairly simply by a detachable screen that is attached on the seat in front of you. This is assuming you touch type. The only thing that might be missing is a universal means to hang the screen without disturbing the folks sitting in front of you. Sounds like a kickstarter type project :-)

reportgunner 3y ago

> Laptops have a problem: their screen. Stopped reading right there.

dguest 3y ago

Great, now drop the keyboard and it will be much more portable. Unfortunately you'd need a compact input device with good haptic feedback. Obviously it has a keyboard [1], but when the screen fits so nicely over it dropping the screen doesn't seem like such a huge bonus. As it stands I'd probably prefer a screen for the 2% of my computing time where I actually want my world to be "public". Still, very cool to see things moving this way! [1]: Physical buttons are a million times better than a touch screen because you don't have to look at them to know what you are doing.

bartislartfast 3y ago
> but when the screen fits so nicely over it dropping the screen doesn't seem like such a huge bonus. > As it stands I'd probably prefer a screen for the 2% of my computing time where I actually want my world to be "public". Yes. Why drop the screen at all? No reason you couldn't have glasses like this on a regular laptop, adding a second screen "behind" your main display. Or just close it to about 45 degrees. I love the idea of a private display, or a floating multiscreen layout, but I dont want to sacrifice the regular screen for that.
moffkalast 3y ago
> now drop the keyboard Ok but then you basically have a phone with some glasses and a tracker. > Sightful built the Spacetop around a Snapdragon 865 from 2019, rather than the more advanced Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, for example. Specs include 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage Wait, it actually already is a smartphone, at least in specs anyway. Who'd go for a laptop without at least half a TB of storage these days? And 8GB of RAM, that's like a decent laptop from almost a decade ago.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  Apple customers?

Tepix 3y ago

It should have a split keyboard and thus be half the size.

marco_craveiro 3y ago

Pretty cool! From having used immersed [1] for a little bit, I really enjoyed having my desktop inside VR. However, the weight of Oculus was just impracticable, could not do an 8 hour shift with it. This sounds much more promising. However, instead of a laptop this should be a stand alone device one could plug in to existing PCs / Laptops methinks... [1] https://immersed.com/ https://immersed.com/

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

anonzzzies 3y ago

I have been doing this for months now with the nreal air, my phone and a portable keyboard with trackpad (I use keyboard shortcuts for anything anyway). It works really well and I haven't taken my laptop anywhere for 2 months or so. It is not perfect, but it's much better than lugging my laptop everywhere (no matter what it weighs; it's the dimensions). And the battery life is outstanding (it's that of my phone and charges as quickly which is much faster than my laptop). I either use github workspaces or vnc to work. VNC is outstanding as it burns minimum battery on the phone and you have a powerful server desktop. Also; it's much more private; no-one can see your screen (unless you share) and when you put the sun light protector on, no-one starts talking with you. It's a very clear sign of ; I am busy. The resolution of the monitor (I run DEX as the AR on this thing is not good enough (yet)) could be higher, but that's just a matter of time, and, as it seems to progress now, not a lot of time at that.

anaisbetts 3y ago
Same, a Steam Deck with an NReal Air and a slim Bluetooth keyboard/mouse is actually a smaller Linux laptop than a laptop (though admittedly a bit more cumbersome for quick usage vs just flipping open a laptop).
paraknight 3y ago
There are dozens of us! I use the phone as trackpad when I need to. Small BT keyboard, but thinking of learning the Charachorder. Nreal Air + S22 Ultra DeX + AVNC + proot Ubuntu (via Andronix) + VSCode with the Remote Development extension has been my daily driver for almost 6 months now I think. I even play games on this via GeForce Now and a Switch Pro controller, even voice chat on Discord at the same time and it doesn't break a sweat.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  The charachorder seems interesting but USB , not BLE, so not sure how that would work with this setup?
FullyFunctional 3y ago
Thanks for sharing this. I was exactly hoping to find something like this in the comments. I had forgotten about the nreal but it looks more useful than the specialized notebook.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

ianai 3y ago
Could have been windows and actual hardware. I’m guessing they’re offsetting the price of the headset with the dismal specs.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  I guess if want to do something this different you want an open source platform so that you can design a user interface that makes sense for VR.

AmigoCharlie 3y ago

It looks a little bit idiotic to me. Imagine how much effort should your eyes take in order to keep focus on all these minute elements, windows, fonts, and so on, which happen to be also so near to your eyes. I think that after 30 minutes looking at all this minute mess, your eyes will just shut down for overload and fatigue.

jiveturkey 3y ago

neat. gave me an atari 800XL vibe. battery power aside. the latest inside news on the apple "XR" headset is that the fight was for portability vs beaming the info from a mac mini. that latter of course having much more power and being able to do much more, at the expense of being tethered. it will be most interesting to see how this plays out. clearly the spacetop is more of a POC build level, but for anyone not Apple it's smart to test the waters this way.