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I mean I’m quite cynical about everything these days but this strikes me as over cynical. The EU charging standard forcing Apple to standardize their chargers h

by davedx 3y ago

I mean I’m quite cynical about everything these days but this strikes me as over cynical. The EU charging standard forcing Apple to standardize their chargers helps consumers and hardly hurts Apple. I am fairly sure there are tons of standards that have a net benefit on the lives and economies of EU member states. Do you have some examples of this N Europe protectionism?

scarface74 3y ago
Would it have helped consumers when the EU was trying to force the micro USB standard which was worse than Lightning in every way? What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C? Bottom line: it won’t happen in Europe.
  - scarface74 3y ago
    Neither will any AI innovations if another proposed regulation comes into affect. AI based companies just won’t do business in the EU.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > AI based companies just won’t do business in the EU They probably will. It’s a huge and lucrative economic bloc. But they won’t be started there, or if they are, will be stunted by the fixed costs of compliance. For all the problems with our political process, America is good about exempting start-ups and small businesses from certain regulation.
      - davedx 3y ago
        OpenAI: "Hold my coat" takes seat in meeting room with Congress to help them draft some handy new laws
- josefx 3y ago
  > which was worse than Lightning in every way? You mean the proprietary connector that Apple would rather have die than turn into a free standard? Which it had over a decade to accomplish between the EU announcing its intention to enforce a standard and actually writing the law. > What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C? There is a renewal period of five years for the connection standard of choice. Why does this question get repeated every time USB comes up?
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    Yeah it's funny how many HNers come out of the woodworks to defend their favorite corporation's inferior proprietary charging standard that hasn't seen mass adoption beyond one single company and even that moved away from it on some of its higher end products. This is why we can't have nice things.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      What higher end products did Apple move away from it on? Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). Apple dropped lightning from iPads but I think that has less to do with moving away and more that iPad volume is relatively small, MFI is not as important in its product segment, it requires high charging rates that lightning probably can’t support, iPad/Mac convergence is a thing and they want to make the charging story between those two compelling (eg connecting your iPhone to your iPad to charge). I seriously doubt Apple dropped iPad because it wants to move away from lightning. Also, Apple has easily shipped many billions of units with lightning connectors and dominates the profit margin of selling a smart phone. I think that qualifies as “mass adoption” regardless and they very intentionally control the lightning standard. I’m sure there’s many competitors who would haven chosen it over usbc before it became so ubiquitous if they could.
      - reaperducer 3y ago
        Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). More than "technically." Lots of devices had FireWire connections. In addition to my PowerBook, my Comcast cable box, my external archive drives from multiple brands, and my Sony camera had FireWire connectors. Many high-end televisions had them, too. The notion that FireWire was an Apple-only thing is little more than a HN cliche.
ChuckNorris89 3y ago
Apple and VW can afford to conform to complex birocratic standards. They have hundreds/thousands of people on the payroll just for that. Smaller companies or companies from poorer countries can't. A lot of companies in Eastern Europe were obliterated when joining the EU and our local market was flooded with goods made in the west since the local ones weren't "up to standard" anymore. Even today we still have a huge trade deficit with the west as we import far more than we export.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  All you need is a short walk around east european supermarkets and you’ll notice there are rarely any east eu supermarket brands and few east european made goods in them. Despite the quality being far higher than say india or china somehow east eu products dont meet eu “standards” and as such are not good enough. But that’s not an issue for counterfeit chinese goods made using slave labour. Not to mention that west european products are often of lower quality than in their home countries, and more expensive.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Counterfeits are their own issue. In short: more developed countries, better laws and their enforcement, more risky to manufacture counterfeit goods. As for low-quality products from China - until recently, Chinese vendors didn't even sell directly to customers in Europe. Most of the garbage products were, and still are, western products, which are only made in China, because... everything is made in China. It's the world's 3D printer. Chinese manufacturers can make goods to arbitrarily high or low quality standards - it's up to the company that orders production to choose how much quality they want to pay for. That is, if you see a shitty product made in China for a western company, don't blame China - it's the western company that chose to request production of low-quality garbage.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      You are right, I shouldn't have made it sound as if I am blaming china. The issue lies entirely with those ordering and selling low quality products made there. But that doesn't imply china is only making low quality products or indeed that it's them pushing their products to europe.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Not sure it is so cut and dry. Here are 8 different USB-C types: 1. USB 2.0 rated at 3A 2. USB 2.0 rated at 5A 3. USB 3.2 Gen 1 rated at 3A 4. USB 3.2 Gen 1 rated at 5A 5. USB 3.2 Gen 2 rated at 3A 6. USB 3.2 Gen 2 rated at 5A 7. USB4 Gen 3 rated at 3A 8. USB4 Gen 3 rated at 5A What percentage of customers will be impacted when they aren't using a compatible cable that looks like it should work? Also the whole master/slave hardware confusion might be a step back: https://superuser.com/questions/1140136/how-does-usb-c-affect-usbs-distinction-between-host-and-peripheral https://superuser.com/questions/1140136/how-does-usb-c-affec...
- megous 3y ago
  Maybe 2 people who expect to get Alt-DP working with USB 2.0 only cable. For others, things will just work, except not at the max capacity/performance.
  - oefrha 3y ago
    > except not at the max capacity/performance That except is doing a lot of work. Picking up a USB-C cable only to find out it charges slower than the device burns battery, or only capable of transferring data at sub USB 2.0 speed when I need to transfer a lot of data are both real world scenarios I have encountered multiple times. Even got a charging cable for >400GB data transfer at an Apple Store Genius Bar once.
    - seba_dos1 3y ago
      > Picking up a USB-C cable only to find out it charges slower than the device burns battery You have to try hard for that, as any compliant cable is able to pass 60W, which is what I can comfortably charge my laptop with. You only need e-markers for going higher than that, which is perfectly reasonable as that's plenty of power already. Cables with no CC lines cannot be called "USB-C cables". They're not complaint at all. They're just broken, and it's no surprise that broken hardware fails to work as expected.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
JacobiX 3y ago
Personally, I would find it easier to be less cynical if the European Union's charging standard extended to include everyday items such as my German Braun shaver. As it currently stands, the standard appears to be limited to the likes of handheld mobile devices, tablets, digital cameras, and similar technologies produced mainly by non EU corporations.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  Right, devices that require expensive chargers
- sillyfluke 3y ago
  one of my best purchases, great device. but those fucking chargers man. I bought several generations, and I've never noticed the battery the degrading at all really, which is more than I can say for the other shavers that became useless when the batteries quickly degraded to the point where you couldn't use it without a cord. The braun shavers are also the fastest charging electronic devices I own. So what's the problem? Like apple, the charger may not be compatible with the older generation. So how about they force companies to bundle an adaptor that can work with the older generations. Or better yet, release an adaptor that lets me charge my phone with my shaver charger:)
gumballindie 3y ago
They have a net benefit on the lives of citizens that live in countries that make the rules. There isn’t one specific example, it’s the sheer amount, and in some cases the stupidity, that are problematic. Sure we all want to live in a utopia but at the moment that utopia is causing mass displacement of economic refugees from east and south europe to nw europe and a constant reliance on eu funding, while the industrial base of those parts of europe has to constantly adapt to new legislation made in countries that already meet the requirements. And this constant game of catching up is in my view intentional protectionism.
blululu 3y ago
Did it help Apple's customers? I would generally bet that a company that is engaged in a highly competitive market would have a better gasp of what their customers would like than a regulatory body composed of people who may or may not have any relevant experience. You don't design a custom cable standard without a clear need. A thinner, more durable cable manufactured to a certain spec has a number of benefits for industrial design and durability that should not be overlooked. But also establishing new standards is also the standard playbook for European industry. There are plenty of examples that are a mere google search away. Two that I find especially annoying are the decision to switch to 50hz AC power instead of using the original 60hz and the decision to create a broadcast TV encoding.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  Yes, it did.
rektide 3y ago
I read this struggle as less about consumer protection & more about compliance. Do you have iso x y and z? Are you doc whatever? Do you meet balh blah blah? Governments end up shopping for contracts & products at a very small number of large shops.

by davedx 3y ago

scarface74 3y ago

Would it have helped consumers when the EU was trying to force the micro USB standard which was worse than Lightning in every way? What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C? Bottom line: it won’t happen in Europe.
- scarface74 3y ago
  Neither will any AI innovations if another proposed regulation comes into affect. AI based companies just won’t do business in the EU.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > AI based companies just won’t do business in the EU They probably will. It’s a huge and lucrative economic bloc. But they won’t be started there, or if they are, will be stunted by the fixed costs of compliance. For all the problems with our political process, America is good about exempting start-ups and small businesses from certain regulation.
    - davedx 3y ago
      OpenAI: "Hold my coat" takes seat in meeting room with Congress to help them draft some handy new laws
josefx 3y ago
> which was worse than Lightning in every way? You mean the proprietary connector that Apple would rather have die than turn into a free standard? Which it had over a decade to accomplish between the EU announcing its intention to enforce a standard and actually writing the law. > What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C? There is a renewal period of five years for the connection standard of choice. Why does this question get repeated every time USB comes up?
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  Yeah it's funny how many HNers come out of the woodworks to defend their favorite corporation's inferior proprietary charging standard that hasn't seen mass adoption beyond one single company and even that moved away from it on some of its higher end products. This is why we can't have nice things.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    What higher end products did Apple move away from it on? Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). Apple dropped lightning from iPads but I think that has less to do with moving away and more that iPad volume is relatively small, MFI is not as important in its product segment, it requires high charging rates that lightning probably can’t support, iPad/Mac convergence is a thing and they want to make the charging story between those two compelling (eg connecting your iPhone to your iPad to charge). I seriously doubt Apple dropped iPad because it wants to move away from lightning. Also, Apple has easily shipped many billions of units with lightning connectors and dominates the profit margin of selling a smart phone. I think that qualifies as “mass adoption” regardless and they very intentionally control the lightning standard. I’m sure there’s many competitors who would haven chosen it over usbc before it became so ubiquitous if they could.
    - reaperducer 3y ago
      Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). More than "technically." Lots of devices had FireWire connections. In addition to my PowerBook, my Comcast cable box, my external archive drives from multiple brands, and my Sony camera had FireWire connectors. Many high-end televisions had them, too. The notion that FireWire was an Apple-only thing is little more than a HN cliche.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

Apple and VW can afford to conform to complex birocratic standards. They have hundreds/thousands of people on the payroll just for that. Smaller companies or companies from poorer countries can't. A lot of companies in Eastern Europe were obliterated when joining the EU and our local market was flooded with goods made in the west since the local ones weren't "up to standard" anymore. Even today we still have a huge trade deficit with the west as we import far more than we export.

gumballindie 3y ago
All you need is a short walk around east european supermarkets and you’ll notice there are rarely any east eu supermarket brands and few east european made goods in them. Despite the quality being far higher than say india or china somehow east eu products dont meet eu “standards” and as such are not good enough. But that’s not an issue for counterfeit chinese goods made using slave labour. Not to mention that west european products are often of lower quality than in their home countries, and more expensive.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Counterfeits are their own issue. In short: more developed countries, better laws and their enforcement, more risky to manufacture counterfeit goods. As for low-quality products from China - until recently, Chinese vendors didn't even sell directly to customers in Europe. Most of the garbage products were, and still are, western products, which are only made in China, because... everything is made in China. It's the world's 3D printer. Chinese manufacturers can make goods to arbitrarily high or low quality standards - it's up to the company that orders production to choose how much quality they want to pay for. That is, if you see a shitty product made in China for a western company, don't blame China - it's the western company that chose to request production of low-quality garbage.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    You are right, I shouldn't have made it sound as if I am blaming china. The issue lies entirely with those ordering and selling low quality products made there. But that doesn't imply china is only making low quality products or indeed that it's them pushing their products to europe.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

Not sure it is so cut and dry. Here are 8 different USB-C types: 1. USB 2.0 rated at 3A 2. USB 2.0 rated at 5A 3. USB 3.2 Gen 1 rated at 3A 4. USB 3.2 Gen 1 rated at 5A 5. USB 3.2 Gen 2 rated at 3A 6. USB 3.2 Gen 2 rated at 5A 7. USB4 Gen 3 rated at 3A 8. USB4 Gen 3 rated at 5A What percentage of customers will be impacted when they aren't using a compatible cable that looks like it should work? Also the whole master/slave hardware confusion might be a step back: https://superuser.com/questions/1140136/how-does-usb-c-affect-usbs-distinction-between-host-and-peripheral https://superuser.com/questions/1140136/how-does-usb-c-affec...

megous 3y ago
Maybe 2 people who expect to get Alt-DP working with USB 2.0 only cable. For others, things will just work, except not at the max capacity/performance.
- oefrha 3y ago
  > except not at the max capacity/performance That except is doing a lot of work. Picking up a USB-C cable only to find out it charges slower than the device burns battery, or only capable of transferring data at sub USB 2.0 speed when I need to transfer a lot of data are both real world scenarios I have encountered multiple times. Even got a charging cable for >400GB data transfer at an Apple Store Genius Bar once.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    > Picking up a USB-C cable only to find out it charges slower than the device burns battery You have to try hard for that, as any compliant cable is able to pass 60W, which is what I can comfortably charge my laptop with. You only need e-markers for going higher than that, which is perfectly reasonable as that's plenty of power already. Cables with no CC lines cannot be called "USB-C cables". They're not complaint at all. They're just broken, and it's no surprise that broken hardware fails to work as expected.
ChuckNorris89 3y ago

JacobiX 3y ago

Personally, I would find it easier to be less cynical if the European Union's charging standard extended to include everyday items such as my German Braun shaver. As it currently stands, the standard appears to be limited to the likes of handheld mobile devices, tablets, digital cameras, and similar technologies produced mainly by non EU corporations.

dingledork69 3y ago
Right, devices that require expensive chargers
sillyfluke 3y ago
one of my best purchases, great device. but those fucking chargers man. I bought several generations, and I've never noticed the battery the degrading at all really, which is more than I can say for the other shavers that became useless when the batteries quickly degraded to the point where you couldn't use it without a cord. The braun shavers are also the fastest charging electronic devices I own. So what's the problem? Like apple, the charger may not be compatible with the older generation. So how about they force companies to bundle an adaptor that can work with the older generations. Or better yet, release an adaptor that lets me charge my phone with my shaver charger:)

gumballindie 3y ago

They have a net benefit on the lives of citizens that live in countries that make the rules. There isn’t one specific example, it’s the sheer amount, and in some cases the stupidity, that are problematic. Sure we all want to live in a utopia but at the moment that utopia is causing mass displacement of economic refugees from east and south europe to nw europe and a constant reliance on eu funding, while the industrial base of those parts of europe has to constantly adapt to new legislation made in countries that already meet the requirements. And this constant game of catching up is in my view intentional protectionism.

blululu 3y ago

Did it help Apple's customers? I would generally bet that a company that is engaged in a highly competitive market would have a better gasp of what their customers would like than a regulatory body composed of people who may or may not have any relevant experience. You don't design a custom cable standard without a clear need. A thinner, more durable cable manufactured to a certain spec has a number of benefits for industrial design and durability that should not be overlooked. But also establishing new standards is also the standard playbook for European industry. There are plenty of examples that are a mere google search away. Two that I find especially annoying are the decision to switch to 50hz AC power instead of using the original 60hz and the decision to create a broadcast TV encoding.

dingledork69 3y ago
Yes, it did.

rektide 3y ago

I read this struggle as less about consumer protection & more about compliance. Do you have iso x y and z? Are you doc whatever? Do you meet balh blah blah? Governments end up shopping for contracts & products at a very small number of large shops.