6 ms·

> I've had this (non-Asus) router for three years. I've never updated the firmware. Botnet operators are very grateful for your cooperation, you are helping th

> I've had this (non-Asus) router for three years. I've never updated the firmware. Botnet operators are very grateful for your cooperation, you are helping them a lot

vultour 3y ago
I've never updated the firmware on any of my routers, and I'll be happy to give you a million dollars if you can prove that it's part of a botnet. This pathethic holier than thou attitude is obnoxious, you really think 95% of routers are part of a botnet? Or that they're even accessible from the internet?
- intelVISA 3y ago
  As 100% of Asus routers are part of the Asus botnet so I'll take my chances on that 5% with my custom, libre, hand-rolled breadboard router.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > you really think 95% of routers are part of a botnet? Or that they're even accessible from the internet? It's probably not 95%, but it's certainly significant. And yes, most consumer routers are obviously accessible from the internet, that's how they work (they're generally not behind a firewall, they are a firewall, and can have vulnerabilities). You might want to read up on it [1, key quotes below], and I know I certainly wouldn't be willing to wager my consumer router wasn't infected, because how would I ever have any idea? > Out of the box, most routers suck when it comes to security. Vulnerable firmware is an easy target. Backdoors have been discovered in just about every brand of router... It's possible you will never even know your device is infected... > When we're talking about routers, these aren't the enterprise-level gear made by the likes of Cisco, Sonicwall, or Palo Alto... We're talking about what you would get off the shelf at Wal-Mart or Best Buy — the D-Links, Netgears, and Linksyses of the world. > The problems start with the cheap, antiquated MIPS architecture used by a lot of these devices' processors... One substantial problem comes from a security flaw that goes back to 2001. Per one deep yet fascinating paper, the chips lack basic defensive abilities against malicious code execution. Combine this with manufactures commonly implementing out-of-date, vulnerable Linux kernels in their devices, and then putting this device on the edge of your network completely exposed to the internet. But to sum up -- not updating your router's firmware is a terrible idea. It's not something to be proud of. [1] https://www.cbtnuggets.com/blog/certifications/security/your-router-is-probably-a-zombie-in-a-botnet https://www.cbtnuggets.com/blog/certifications/security/your...
AviationAtom 3y ago
If you don't expose any external services of the router then it's a bit hard for botnets to take advantage of your router. Most of these routers are likely becoming part of the botnet for enabling external web management and/or using default creds (especially if SSH is exposed externally). Security isn't exceptionally hard, if you actually put some effort into it.
- chatmasta 3y ago
  There have been plenty of router exploits that begin with a pivot from a web browser to a poorly secured admin panel on the local network. Firewalling incoming traffic from the Internet to the router's management interface is no security panacea.
  - AviationAtom 3y ago
    Again, as I mentioned, the bulk of those rely on default creds. Many of the big manufacturers have been tackling that issue by forcing a password change at setup and not allowing an insecure default to be chosen.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    > a poorly secured admin panel on the local network Why is the web interface left on? Just turn that off, there shouldn't be much to do with that.
    - AviationAtom 3y ago
      Not sure you'll see this, with HN's lack of notifications, and so much time elapsed but here's the answer: Most consumer routers do not support disabling the web interface on the local network, as it's the primary (only?) means of administration for them. This attack relies on getting users to browse to an address with default creds by some means, with a URL prepended that will cause the desired action to occur. More often than not a popular action is to modify the DNS servers used, so that DNS traffic can then me manipulated to point to malicious servers used for the ultimate attack.
  - deleted 3y ago
than3 3y ago
Don't forget the biggest botnet being ASUS who didn't disclose the scanning... or whatever else they happen to be doing without the explicit consent of the owner. Issues like this don't happen across such a wide area by accident. Basic professional practices have any updates tested beforehand on physical hardware at multiple stages before any push happens, and they leave it up to the user because pushing an update without the owner's explicit consent to a device they own, runs afoul of the same hacking abuse laws. The legal exposure is massive. It also doesn't account for the fact that firmware was attempted to be updated on devices which were set to not update. ASUS has a lot to explain. They didn't release any kind of statement so the lawyers and computer forensics people will likely need to get involved to get to the bottom of it. I look forward to eventually hearing about what really happened.
denton-scratch 3y ago
Don't think so. The management interfaces are only exposed on the local network. If you could hack into my local network some other way (e.g. through Apache), you could probably attack the web interface on the router; but in fact no local network services are exposed to the internet.
- mort96 3y ago
  It's a device that's directly exposed on the public Internet. Anyone in the world can send any package they want to it. It's not that uncommon for people to find bad bugs in network protocol stacks. An attacker wouldn't have to go through a web interface.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  There are a multitude of ways to trick consumer routers into letting an external request log into the web interface. That's also ignoring the multitude of ways to botnet them without using the web portal, as manufacturers suck at their job and often ship known exploited libraries and utilities. Some have had genuine back doors even.
Aeolun 3y ago
Botnet operators are careful to not mess with my internet connection. If they want to use my router for other stuff while it’s not in use by me, who am I to complain.

> I've had this (non-Asus) router for three years. I've never updated the firmware. Botnet operators are very grateful for your cooperation, you are helping them a lot

vultour 3y ago

I've never updated the firmware on any of my routers, and I'll be happy to give you a million dollars if you can prove that it's part of a botnet. This pathethic holier than thou attitude is obnoxious, you really think 95% of routers are part of a botnet? Or that they're even accessible from the internet?

intelVISA 3y ago
As 100% of Asus routers are part of the Asus botnet so I'll take my chances on that 5% with my custom, libre, hand-rolled breadboard router.
crazygringo 3y ago
> you really think 95% of routers are part of a botnet? Or that they're even accessible from the internet? It's probably not 95%, but it's certainly significant. And yes, most consumer routers are obviously accessible from the internet, that's how they work (they're generally not behind a firewall, they are a firewall, and can have vulnerabilities). You might want to read up on it [1, key quotes below], and I know I certainly wouldn't be willing to wager my consumer router wasn't infected, because how would I ever have any idea? > Out of the box, most routers suck when it comes to security. Vulnerable firmware is an easy target. Backdoors have been discovered in just about every brand of router... It's possible you will never even know your device is infected... > When we're talking about routers, these aren't the enterprise-level gear made by the likes of Cisco, Sonicwall, or Palo Alto... We're talking about what you would get off the shelf at Wal-Mart or Best Buy — the D-Links, Netgears, and Linksyses of the world. > The problems start with the cheap, antiquated MIPS architecture used by a lot of these devices' processors... One substantial problem comes from a security flaw that goes back to 2001. Per one deep yet fascinating paper, the chips lack basic defensive abilities against malicious code execution. Combine this with manufactures commonly implementing out-of-date, vulnerable Linux kernels in their devices, and then putting this device on the edge of your network completely exposed to the internet. But to sum up -- not updating your router's firmware is a terrible idea. It's not something to be proud of. [1] https://www.cbtnuggets.com/blog/certifications/security/your-router-is-probably-a-zombie-in-a-botnet https://www.cbtnuggets.com/blog/certifications/security/your...

AviationAtom 3y ago

If you don't expose any external services of the router then it's a bit hard for botnets to take advantage of your router. Most of these routers are likely becoming part of the botnet for enabling external web management and/or using default creds (especially if SSH is exposed externally). Security isn't exceptionally hard, if you actually put some effort into it.

chatmasta 3y ago
There have been plenty of router exploits that begin with a pivot from a web browser to a poorly secured admin panel on the local network. Firewalling incoming traffic from the Internet to the router's management interface is no security panacea.
- AviationAtom 3y ago
  Again, as I mentioned, the bulk of those rely on default creds. Many of the big manufacturers have been tackling that issue by forcing a password change at setup and not allowing an insecure default to be chosen.
- numpad0 3y ago
  > a poorly secured admin panel on the local network Why is the web interface left on? Just turn that off, there shouldn't be much to do with that.
  - AviationAtom 3y ago
    Not sure you'll see this, with HN's lack of notifications, and so much time elapsed but here's the answer: Most consumer routers do not support disabling the web interface on the local network, as it's the primary (only?) means of administration for them. This attack relies on getting users to browse to an address with default creds by some means, with a URL prepended that will cause the desired action to occur. More often than not a popular action is to modify the DNS servers used, so that DNS traffic can then me manipulated to point to malicious servers used for the ultimate attack.
- deleted 3y ago

than3 3y ago

Don't forget the biggest botnet being ASUS who didn't disclose the scanning... or whatever else they happen to be doing without the explicit consent of the owner. Issues like this don't happen across such a wide area by accident. Basic professional practices have any updates tested beforehand on physical hardware at multiple stages before any push happens, and they leave it up to the user because pushing an update without the owner's explicit consent to a device they own, runs afoul of the same hacking abuse laws. The legal exposure is massive. It also doesn't account for the fact that firmware was attempted to be updated on devices which were set to not update. ASUS has a lot to explain. They didn't release any kind of statement so the lawyers and computer forensics people will likely need to get involved to get to the bottom of it. I look forward to eventually hearing about what really happened.

denton-scratch 3y ago

Don't think so. The management interfaces are only exposed on the local network. If you could hack into my local network some other way (e.g. through Apache), you could probably attack the web interface on the router; but in fact no local network services are exposed to the internet.

mort96 3y ago
It's a device that's directly exposed on the public Internet. Anyone in the world can send any package they want to it. It's not that uncommon for people to find bad bugs in network protocol stacks. An attacker wouldn't have to go through a web interface.
mrguyorama 3y ago
There are a multitude of ways to trick consumer routers into letting an external request log into the web interface. That's also ignoring the multitude of ways to botnet them without using the web portal, as manufacturers suck at their job and often ship known exploited libraries and utilities. Some have had genuine back doors even.

Aeolun 3y ago

Botnet operators are careful to not mess with my internet connection. If they want to use my router for other stuff while it’s not in use by me, who am I to complain.