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https://medium.com/do-you-not-like-language/is-mandarin-more-efficient-than-english-616398007630 https://medium.com/do-you-not-like-language/is-mandarin-more...

https://medium.com/do-you-not-like-language/is-mandarin-more-efficient-than-english-616398007630 https://medium.com/do-you-not-like-language/is-mandarin-more... It’s possible Mandarin has even higher efficiency. And there are very many people who speak Mandarin. You are expecting English to come out on top. But do not be surprised if in the end it will be Mandarin.

hunglee2 3y ago
not sure about Mandarin, I think it will follow a different path given that a significant degree of the meaning is implicit in Mandarin. LLM is trained in explicit (documented) information, so unclear in my mind right how whether this will be more or less efficient. Will read the link though - thanks!
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Given how Chinese talk about topics using code words to discuss controversial topics online (and avoid low effort keyword censorship), I wonder if an LLM could learn to do that given a censor in the training process?
  - hunglee2 3y ago
    it's all code words, this is not as conspirational as imagined by non-language speakers. A great deal of normal conversation / interaction is idiomatic given that it is difficult to create new words in logographic languages. Your point is valid though - how does AI learn this? I don't think it can easily, it is akin for an AI to keep up with street slang, it couldn't guess it an advance it would have to be trained in it, which seems it will need greater human attendance than alphabetical languages!
shjake 3y ago
It’s not like one has too fully dominated the other. I can’t imagine mandarin ever becoming widespread in the west unless there are some fundamental changes to Chinese society and culture. Similarly western tech companies have huge issues in penetrating the Chinese market.
- carlmr 3y ago
  I think if Mandatin started using pinyin or it could start dominating. The language itself isn't that much more difficult than other languages. You can get used to tones, too. The grammar is actually simpler than in English. But the sheer number of characters to rote memorize makes it way too inefficient to learn for foreigners, and arguably even for natives, that I don't see it becoming a world language. There's always the argument that pinyin isn't enough, that the characters are essentially useful. Which I think Vietnamese, which used to be based on the same writing system and is also tonal, proves wrong. If you can't communicate with pinyin you can't communicate with the language, since it almost perfectly models the sounds.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Chinese characters are used phonetically for a lot of minority (non-Chinese) languages in China. Which I don’t really get, but there it is. I guess there is legacy to consider, as the use of Chinese in writing systems predate pinyin, and there is no pressure to change.
  - adelie 3y ago
    > If you can't communicate with pinyin you can't communicate with the language, since it almost perfectly models the sounds. hm, i'd say it's a bit more complicated than that. written and literary chinese has a different (often more concise) style than conversational chinese because certain things that would be ambiguous spoken aren't that way when written. similarly, japanese has a perfectly functional syllabary (hiragana), but people will use kanji anyways because it's a lot easier to parse at a glance.
- nindalf 3y ago
  It’s hard to predict future cultural relevance. No one in 1998 was predicting then global popularity of Korean film/TV/music within 2 decades. And yet it happened. Chinese TV shows could become equally popular. Some will say you need to have freedom to create art but I’m pretty sure that the Mario movie or Fast X (two movies at the top at the moment) needed minimal artistic freedom. Fast X is actually a great example because that franchise goes out of its way to toe the CCP line.[1] It shows that it’s possible to make billions while also kowtowing to the Party. [1] - John Cena apologises for calling Taiwan a country (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/world/asia/john-cena-taiwan-apology.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/world/asia/john-cena-taiw...)
xgdgsc 3y ago
I used to set my OS and apps to English for easy search of function or bugs. But with the trend of design that emphasizes "flat" look, which often includes removing menu icons and keep only English text. I started switching back app languages to Chinese, where every menu text itself is already an "icon" that 's way easier to find on glimpse.
fallingknife 3y ago
English is dominant, not because the number of speakers, but because they are so widespread. Mandarin has more, but they area almost all in China, whereas there is hardly a corner of the earth where you can't find an English speaker. So if you plan to travel to a lot of places, the most efficient language to learn is English. Between any two non-neighboring countries, the language with the highest number of mutual speakers is almost certainly English. I don't think any other language in history has had this level of network effect.

hunglee2 3y ago

not sure about Mandarin, I think it will follow a different path given that a significant degree of the meaning is implicit in Mandarin. LLM is trained in explicit (documented) information, so unclear in my mind right how whether this will be more or less efficient. Will read the link though - thanks!

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Given how Chinese talk about topics using code words to discuss controversial topics online (and avoid low effort keyword censorship), I wonder if an LLM could learn to do that given a censor in the training process?
- hunglee2 3y ago
  it's all code words, this is not as conspirational as imagined by non-language speakers. A great deal of normal conversation / interaction is idiomatic given that it is difficult to create new words in logographic languages. Your point is valid though - how does AI learn this? I don't think it can easily, it is akin for an AI to keep up with street slang, it couldn't guess it an advance it would have to be trained in it, which seems it will need greater human attendance than alphabetical languages!

shjake 3y ago

It’s not like one has too fully dominated the other. I can’t imagine mandarin ever becoming widespread in the west unless there are some fundamental changes to Chinese society and culture. Similarly western tech companies have huge issues in penetrating the Chinese market.

carlmr 3y ago
I think if Mandatin started using pinyin or it could start dominating. The language itself isn't that much more difficult than other languages. You can get used to tones, too. The grammar is actually simpler than in English. But the sheer number of characters to rote memorize makes it way too inefficient to learn for foreigners, and arguably even for natives, that I don't see it becoming a world language. There's always the argument that pinyin isn't enough, that the characters are essentially useful. Which I think Vietnamese, which used to be based on the same writing system and is also tonal, proves wrong. If you can't communicate with pinyin you can't communicate with the language, since it almost perfectly models the sounds.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Chinese characters are used phonetically for a lot of minority (non-Chinese) languages in China. Which I don’t really get, but there it is. I guess there is legacy to consider, as the use of Chinese in writing systems predate pinyin, and there is no pressure to change.
- adelie 3y ago
  > If you can't communicate with pinyin you can't communicate with the language, since it almost perfectly models the sounds. hm, i'd say it's a bit more complicated than that. written and literary chinese has a different (often more concise) style than conversational chinese because certain things that would be ambiguous spoken aren't that way when written. similarly, japanese has a perfectly functional syllabary (hiragana), but people will use kanji anyways because it's a lot easier to parse at a glance.
nindalf 3y ago
It’s hard to predict future cultural relevance. No one in 1998 was predicting then global popularity of Korean film/TV/music within 2 decades. And yet it happened. Chinese TV shows could become equally popular. Some will say you need to have freedom to create art but I’m pretty sure that the Mario movie or Fast X (two movies at the top at the moment) needed minimal artistic freedom. Fast X is actually a great example because that franchise goes out of its way to toe the CCP line.[1] It shows that it’s possible to make billions while also kowtowing to the Party. [1] - John Cena apologises for calling Taiwan a country (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/world/asia/john-cena-taiwan-apology.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/world/asia/john-cena-taiw...)

xgdgsc 3y ago

I used to set my OS and apps to English for easy search of function or bugs. But with the trend of design that emphasizes "flat" look, which often includes removing menu icons and keep only English text. I started switching back app languages to Chinese, where every menu text itself is already an "icon" that 's way easier to find on glimpse.

fallingknife 3y ago

English is dominant, not because the number of speakers, but because they are so widespread. Mandarin has more, but they area almost all in China, whereas there is hardly a corner of the earth where you can't find an English speaker. So if you plan to travel to a lot of places, the most efficient language to learn is English. Between any two non-neighboring countries, the language with the highest number of mutual speakers is almost certainly English. I don't think any other language in history has had this level of network effect.