7 ms·

Not surprised. So many stories about an organization doing something that’s evidently crazy turn out to be bullshit. The truth is always more nuanced than what

Not surprised. So many stories about an organization doing something that’s evidently crazy turn out to be bullshit. The truth is always more nuanced than what gets reported. People are (almost) never as incompetent/crazy/malicious as it might seem on a cursory review.

HPsquared 3y ago
The truth is always more complicated and boring than the viral meme.
- rdl 3y ago
  The "color of money" thing was so obnoxious when I was contracting in Iraq. They could easily spent essentially unlimited amounts for certain kinds of things which weren't needed, but then couldn't pay for other things (with less than a 6-24mo process to get new funds). I understand the fraud/misappropriation that would happen without such systems, it was very cumbersome. And due to "anti-deficiency act", it was illegal to just pay for it out of pocket and give them stuff for free, too.
Carioca 3y ago
Reminds me a lot of the million-dollar space pen vs pencil story
- sam_goody 3y ago
  I understood that anecdote to be true. Fisher spent $1M (of "then" money) creating a "space pen", capitalized on the unique opportunity and publicity, and went from a startup to a $60M company. They knew that the astronauts could use a pencil, but that wouldn't be very profitable for them. For Fisher, it was a capitalist triumph, and symbolized American values. For the U.S.S.R. it symbolized U.S. wastefulness, and was portrayed in a negative light. For the media, if they can portray something as terrible, they will. It sells papers. So that is kind of a capitalist triumph as well. In the end, it turned out to be dangerous to use pencils in space (graphite turns into a floating flammable dust while writing), so eventually both the Soviets and the Americans bought space pens. Which was great, as Fisher recouped about $1K just from NASA! More importantly, that marketing ploy may have saved the entire spacecraft - the law of unintended consequences!
  - logdap 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure regular ballpoint pens work just fine in space. Try writing with one upsidedown in earth gravity; they work fine.
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      They don't work well.
    - Robotbeat 3y ago
      They actually don’t. They work fine for a few words then the ink fades out and is basically gone after the fifth or sixth word. I just tried (go ahead and try it yourself, I used just a regular Bic pen). A similar thing occurs when writing on a vertical surface. Pens also do poorly when cold. Space pens use a pressurized ink cartridge that works independent of orientation and works when hot or cold. They’re cheap. It’d be dumb to NOT use a space pen on a mission now. Before the pressurized ink cartridge of the space pen was invented, they used grease pencils. Actually, the space pen is an example of successful private invention inspired by and then applied to and utilized by NASA.
  - Carioca 3y ago
    The first version I heard went through a long diatribe on how “the US” (implying NASA) spent a long time and a million dollars creating a pen that would work in space and the punchline was “Well, the Soviets just used a pencil”. Glad to see that this version has been losing ground to better retellings. If you check the Wiki article[1], the urban legend is mentioned 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen
  - gpm 3y ago
    The anecdote usually isn't "a private company invested a million of their own dollars into making a 'space pen'", it's "NASA invested a million dollars into making a space pen, while the soviets just used a pencil". And I mean, you clearly know that version isn't true. As you say, fisher only recouped $1k from NASA (I think was just the original order, I believe they're still used today), and the soviets also switched over to the pen (incidentally at the same price, $2.39/pen). You say "eventually", but the soviets only took a year to switch. And while we're at it, NASA used pencils before the space pen just like the soviets did, which makes the "while the soviets did something else" part even less true. > that marketing ploy may have saved the entire spacecraft - the law of unintended consequences I'm reasonably confident that "avoiding flammable substances that tends to give off flammable flakes (graphite)" was an intended consequence, not an unintended one.
steveklabnik 3y ago
The hot coffee lawsuit is the first thing I think of here. Heck even the name is like… whew.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  I guess "the dangerously hot coffee that fused a customer's labia" does not have the same punch when trying to argue for tort reform.
  - logdap 3y ago
    That's a myth within a myth. The coffee was industry standard temperature, they still serve coffee that hot today (Wikipedia says as much.) The lawsuit was justified though, because the cup design was defective. It shouldn't have collapsed like it did.
    - fishtoaster 3y ago
      That doesn't seem to match what's in wikipedia: > Liebeck's attorneys argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's. The attorneys presented evidence that coffee they had tested all over the city was served at a temperature at least 20 °F (11 °C) lower than McDonald's coffee. Reading through wikipedia's discussion of the trial and verdict, it sounds like the case hinged entirely on the temperature of the coffee being unusually high, and not the cup design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restau...
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        It's strange that despite the research showing that most customers intend to consume the coffee immediately and despite this lawsuit and, apparently, others, McDonald's and other establishments continue to serve coffee at such a high temperature. Every time I buy a hot drink (admittedly, not that often) I can't actually drink it for several minutes.
oatmeal1 3y ago
I mean we have a trillion dollar fighter which is still dangerous for pilots. The small things are overblown and the big things even when they hit the news don't get appreciated.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  >trillion dollar fighter Whut
  - oatmeal1 3y ago
    [dead]

HPsquared 3y ago

The truth is always more complicated and boring than the viral meme.

rdl 3y ago
The "color of money" thing was so obnoxious when I was contracting in Iraq. They could easily spent essentially unlimited amounts for certain kinds of things which weren't needed, but then couldn't pay for other things (with less than a 6-24mo process to get new funds). I understand the fraud/misappropriation that would happen without such systems, it was very cumbersome. And due to "anti-deficiency act", it was illegal to just pay for it out of pocket and give them stuff for free, too.

Carioca 3y ago

Reminds me a lot of the million-dollar space pen vs pencil story

sam_goody 3y ago
I understood that anecdote to be true. Fisher spent $1M (of "then" money) creating a "space pen", capitalized on the unique opportunity and publicity, and went from a startup to a $60M company. They knew that the astronauts could use a pencil, but that wouldn't be very profitable for them. For Fisher, it was a capitalist triumph, and symbolized American values. For the U.S.S.R. it symbolized U.S. wastefulness, and was portrayed in a negative light. For the media, if they can portray something as terrible, they will. It sells papers. So that is kind of a capitalist triumph as well. In the end, it turned out to be dangerous to use pencils in space (graphite turns into a floating flammable dust while writing), so eventually both the Soviets and the Americans bought space pens. Which was great, as Fisher recouped about $1K just from NASA! More importantly, that marketing ploy may have saved the entire spacecraft - the law of unintended consequences!
- logdap 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure regular ballpoint pens work just fine in space. Try writing with one upsidedown in earth gravity; they work fine.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    They don't work well.
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    They actually don’t. They work fine for a few words then the ink fades out and is basically gone after the fifth or sixth word. I just tried (go ahead and try it yourself, I used just a regular Bic pen). A similar thing occurs when writing on a vertical surface. Pens also do poorly when cold. Space pens use a pressurized ink cartridge that works independent of orientation and works when hot or cold. They’re cheap. It’d be dumb to NOT use a space pen on a mission now. Before the pressurized ink cartridge of the space pen was invented, they used grease pencils. Actually, the space pen is an example of successful private invention inspired by and then applied to and utilized by NASA.
- Carioca 3y ago
  The first version I heard went through a long diatribe on how “the US” (implying NASA) spent a long time and a million dollars creating a pen that would work in space and the punchline was “Well, the Soviets just used a pencil”. Glad to see that this version has been losing ground to better retellings. If you check the Wiki article[1], the urban legend is mentioned 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen
- gpm 3y ago
  The anecdote usually isn't "a private company invested a million of their own dollars into making a 'space pen'", it's "NASA invested a million dollars into making a space pen, while the soviets just used a pencil". And I mean, you clearly know that version isn't true. As you say, fisher only recouped $1k from NASA (I think was just the original order, I believe they're still used today), and the soviets also switched over to the pen (incidentally at the same price, $2.39/pen). You say "eventually", but the soviets only took a year to switch. And while we're at it, NASA used pencils before the space pen just like the soviets did, which makes the "while the soviets did something else" part even less true. > that marketing ploy may have saved the entire spacecraft - the law of unintended consequences I'm reasonably confident that "avoiding flammable substances that tends to give off flammable flakes (graphite)" was an intended consequence, not an unintended one.

steveklabnik 3y ago

The hot coffee lawsuit is the first thing I think of here. Heck even the name is like… whew.

emodendroket 3y ago
I guess "the dangerously hot coffee that fused a customer's labia" does not have the same punch when trying to argue for tort reform.
- logdap 3y ago
  That's a myth within a myth. The coffee was industry standard temperature, they still serve coffee that hot today (Wikipedia says as much.) The lawsuit was justified though, because the cup design was defective. It shouldn't have collapsed like it did.
  - fishtoaster 3y ago
    That doesn't seem to match what's in wikipedia: > Liebeck's attorneys argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's. The attorneys presented evidence that coffee they had tested all over the city was served at a temperature at least 20 °F (11 °C) lower than McDonald's coffee. Reading through wikipedia's discussion of the trial and verdict, it sounds like the case hinged entirely on the temperature of the coffee being unusually high, and not the cup design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restau...
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      It's strange that despite the research showing that most customers intend to consume the coffee immediately and despite this lawsuit and, apparently, others, McDonald's and other establishments continue to serve coffee at such a high temperature. Every time I buy a hot drink (admittedly, not that often) I can't actually drink it for several minutes.

oatmeal1 3y ago

I mean we have a trillion dollar fighter which is still dangerous for pilots. The small things are overblown and the big things even when they hit the news don't get appreciated.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago
>trillion dollar fighter Whut
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  [dead]