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Quad9’s Opinion of the Recent Court Ruling in Leipzig
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago> The court did not apply the rules of the German Telemedia Act. The court’s decision ignored the VPN concept and implies that Quad9 must block these domains regardless of how users reach them or from what nation those intentionally disguised queries originate. Quad9 is shocked that the court ruled in favor of Sony Music What a surprise that German courts run by boomer judges, who never used the internet before, ruled in favor of big media IP corporate interests with some bizzaro demands that don't make technical sense. Never seen that before. /s Cough, Axel-Springer, Cough
- pmontra 3y agoHow do you know the age of the judge?
- vlz 3y agoBackground: > The case centers around Sony Music’s demand that Quad9’s servers located in Germany stop resolving DNS names of third-party sites which are claimed to have URLs that contain copyright infringements. https://quad9.net/news/press/german-court-rules-against https://quad9.net/news/press/german-court-rules-against
- ChuckNorris89 3y agoYeah, unfortunately Germany is the Nintendo of the EU when it comes to IP rulings. In most other EU countries you'll be laughed out of the court with such demands.
- skrause 3y ago> In most other EU countries you'll be laughed out of the court with such demands. In many other EU countries DNS-based blocking of various piracy sites is just standard procedure by ISPs, so courts aren't even asked. In Germany there are very few sites which are actually blocked, and usually just for single ISPs because every single one requires a specific court order. Last week I was in the Netherlands and found that multiple sites which work perfectly at home in Germany were blocked by the Dutch ISP.
- jorvi 3y ago.. let’s not pretend like The Netherlands is a media enforcement walhalla where sites get blocked willy nilly. A few of the biggest torrent sites are blocked, along with some proxies. That’s it. It still requires a court order. The only difference is that there’s a covenant that requires BREIN (sort of an off-brand RIAA) to only sue big providers for a site block and in a round robin fashion, and in return the ISPs agree to implement the block in aggregate if the court case is lost. And unlike Germany, we don’t get sued for hundreds to thousands of euros for downloading a single file. Only extreme sharers are warned and later on sued. Not that things aren’t stupid here. We used to have a ruling where we paid a “thuiskopieheffing” (“home copy levy”) of a few % on any digital storage, including devices. In trade, you were legally allowed to download anything, so long as it was for private use only. A few years back that exception got nullified, but somehow the levy stayed.
- ChuckNorris89 3y agoMaybe you didn't read the ruling fully. Quad9 already complied with not resolving pirate domains in Germany, just like ISPs do in every country, but the Leipzig court wants their enforcement to go beyond Germany due to VPN users circumventing this. Here's the full issue copied from below in the thread: > German court decisions are normally limited to Germany, which is why Quad9 has implemented geoIP on its infrastructure in Germany to prevent the domain names in question to be resolved for users querying from Germany. However, there are loopholes, such as VPNs, beyond Quad9’s control. The court deemed this not to be sufficient. The court’s decision ignored the VPN concept and implies that Quad9 must block these domains regardless of how users reach them or from what nation those intentionally disguised queries originate. Quad9 believes this is an exceptionally dangerous precedent that could lead to future global-reaching commercialized and political censorship if DNS blocking is applied globally without geographic limitations to certain jurisdictions.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35972790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35972790
- PurpleRamen 3y ago[flagged]
- WelcomeShorty 3y agoOh yes, Sony at it, again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment_America,_Inc._v._Hotz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment_Am... I have since never bought a Sony, although I really loved their products. Here's geohot's brilliant reply: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iUvuaChDEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iUvuaChDEg
- alternatetwo 3y agoSony as a company should not even exist anymore, after they did this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... How this didn't warrant a corporate death sentence and major prison time for executives is a mystery to me.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y agoAgreed, though I'm still annoyed at Sony for removing the Linux compatibility from my PS3 which was one of the reasons that I bought it.
- gruturo 3y agoI have not bought a single Sony device since the rootkit fiasco. I am tempted to compile a list of my purchases over the years, highlighting where they lost my money, and emailing it to them to show them this shit is costing them very real money. Vote with your wallets. And let them know.
- Marsymars 3y agoUnfortunately, for me, a Sony smart TV was the least-bad option. (Given I trust Chinese options and non-Google TV operating systems even less.)
- computerfriend 3y agoI found a TorrentFreak article that mentioned that the site in question is Ukrainian, but that it was also unnamed in the suit. Does anyone know what the site is? And, how can they be compelled to drop requests for it if it is unnamed?
- dmichulke 3y agoNext step: Order navigation device vendors to stop resolving coordinates where crimes happen. You're resolving it, you surely must know what's going on over there.
- patresh 3y agoOr order destroying the public streets leading to houses with alleged criminal activity.
- asimpletune 3y agoI get this sense, from having seen many articles on hn about German court rulings, that the philosophy of law in Germany is sort of weird. In particular it feels that they tend to decide in favor of some perceived status quo and not the law or the facts of the case. I don’t know anything about this though. Are there any German lawyers here who can comment on the spirit of German legal philosophy in the courts?
- kioleanu 3y agoI can only comment anecdotally, but my one experience with a German court was weird to say the least: I bought a house from a community of heirs and shortly said, they have falsely disclosed that they were legally prepared to sell the house and the delays until they were ready incured quite some costs, but nothing critical, just a few thousand euros. I sued to recover the costs and the case got assigned to a high profile judge in the city (don't ask me why, as again we are talking about a few thousand euros), who dismissed the case with, I quote "I also sold a house as part of a community of heirs and we had everything in order and it still took several months, you should have expected this". Completely ignored proof that they lied (in writing) to make me sign the contract and that it took them more than several months just to start the process that then took several months to complete
- fh973 3y ago> Quad9’s first step towards continuing this fight will be appealing the decision reached by the Leipzig Regional Court. > Being a small, non-profit organization, litigation has put a financial and operational strain on Quad9 as they continue funding its defense. They ask that anyone capable and inclined consider donating to maintain the foundation of a free and open Internet. Quad9 relies on donations and grants to continue providing cybersecurity and privacy services to our users. https://quad9.net/donate https://quad9.net/donate (Paypal, Bank Transfer) https://quad9.net/about/foundation-council https://quad9.net/about/foundation-council
- KyleSanderson 3y agoQuad9 definitely does not need funding. PCH and IBM fund them fully, with the analytics behind it.
- Eduard 3y agoPCH = Packet Clearing House, one of Quad9's founding organizations... and sponsors? https://www.quad9.net/about/sponsors/ https://www.quad9.net/about/sponsors/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_Clearing_House https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_Clearing_House https://support.quad9.net/hc/en-us/articles/4422044032781-Quad9-Network-Providers-WoodyNet-PCH-net-i3D-GSL-Networks-EdgeUno-Equinix-Metal https://support.quad9.net/hc/en-us/articles/4422044032781-Qu... https://www.quad9.net/news/blog/quad9-and-your-data/ https://www.quad9.net/news/blog/quad9-and-your-data/ May you elaborate what you imply by "with the analytics behind it"?
- kioleanu 3y agoThis reads like the court had very little understanding of what was actually requested and discussed. Also on how technology works in general.
- SomeBoolshit 3y agoWelcome to Germany.
- mgraupner 3y agoWelcome to Germanys Landgerichte (State Courts). Sony probably knew, that this judge would rule in their favour (former rulings, of old age, ...). Now the defendant has to appeal the ruling, which costs a lot of money and time.
- enos-ape 3y agoWhy a german regional court?
- mgraupner 3y agoBecause Sony sued at this court (you can't just start at the High Court). If they decide to appeal, it moves higher up the hierarchy.
- PurpleRamen 3y agoBecause in Germany you start at the bottom, and sue our way up. German conflicts escalate slowly.
- kelnos 3y agoIt seems like quad9 is based in Switzerland; why are they bound by a German court's decision? Can't they simply ignore it?
- lwkl 3y agoThat's one of the reasons they are appealing: > German court decisions are normally limited to Germany, which is why Quad9 has implemented geoIP on its infrastructure in Germany to prevent the domain names in question to be resolved for users querying from Germany. However, there are loopholes, such as VPNs, beyond Quad9’s control. The court deemed this not to be sufficient. The court’s decision ignored the VPN concept and implies that Quad9 must block these domains regardless of how users reach them or from what nation those intentionally disguised queries originate. Quad9 believes this is an exceptionally dangerous precedent that could lead to future global-reaching commercialized and political censorship if DNS blocking is applied globally without geographic limitations to certain jurisdictions.
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoI am curious how you a German magistrate thought it has jurisdiction over what happens in other countries. This is mind boggling.
- em-bee 3y agowhile i disagree with the ruling, that is not what is happening. they are ruling on what happens on a german server. the question is, if something that is illegal in a country, may still be produced in the country if it is only offered outside of that country. this is certainly not clear-cut.
- Eduard 3y agoSo Quad4 wants to avoid the profileration of a precedent which in turn may be used in further (international) jurisdictions as an argument pro DNS censorship?
- PurpleRamen 3y ago
- pabs3 3y agoReminder: you can run a recursive DNS resolver on your laptop using unbound or one of the many other open source DNS resolvers.
- lakomen 3y ago[flagged]
- pabs3 3y agoThe root servers are uncensored, your DNS resolver will contact them directly.
- Dylan16807 3y agoDid you skip the word "recursive"? When you look up example.com, you'll directly ask the .com servers. There won't be any middleman who can give you a fake result. (Domain seizures are a different issue that can't be solved with technology alone.)
- pabs3 3y agoThat isn't entirely correct, your network path to the root servers can intercept your queries to the root servers and forge the results. This can include anything from the WiFi device, to the ISP to the backbone providers and maybe(?) the NSA if they have any taps on that path.
- miki123211 3y agoMaybe somebody should host a DNS resolver in Poland? We don't have any piracy-related domain blocking or domain-blocking laws at all, except a single registry run by the ministry of finance which is exclusively aimed at gambling websites which don't pay taxes here.
- vrglvrglvrgl 3y ago[dead]
- gg82 3y agoThey should block Sony's domains as well.
- AviationAtom 3y agoThe site this whole case centered around is Canna.to, in case anyone wondered. Still resolvable by Google DNS.