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Americans like to think they have a monopoly on skilled programmers. But the reality is that most countries have them and they will do the same work for a fract

Americans like to think they have a monopoly on skilled programmers. But the reality is that most countries have them and they will do the same work for a fraction of the price. Everything is done over the internet these days so it doesn't matter that much where you are located.

whaleofatw2022 4y ago
We still have a monopoly on good language practices for American english and/or AFAIK how to actually build something that solves business needs rather than requirements. We saw similar between 2005ish-2015ish. Lots of offshoring where you could get whatever you 'wanted' built, but it was exactly what you 'wanted' and not what actually made sense. By this I am referring to contract houses that weren't quite 'code genies' but still would deliver products that were barely workable upon delivery. More than one shop I worked at over the last decade actually -suffered- from this. Magically, most orgs who could figure out how to deliver even semi passable/realistic functional requirements could get the same done in house for a LOT less money.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  You are probably thinking about dirt cheap outsourcing to places like India. When part of the shift that's happening now is internal hiring of full time developers in places like Australia or the UK where the language skills and culture is pretty much the same but the wages far lower.
  - whaleofatw2022 4y ago
    The cost of Australian software historically gives me pause to at least part of your comment. That said, yes a lot of counties can provide very competent software development and houses.. but the communication time gap is often still present. Another shop I worked at had EU devs that were competent, but that communication gap was still a big hurdle.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    Indian developers are far superior to Australian and UK developers. It’s just that you’re hiring a million Indian developers for every 1000 UK developers, so is it surprising that the average Indian developer doesn’t seem as good?
    - bbg2401 4y ago
      Tone down your racism and ethno-nationalism.
jimbob45 4y ago
99% of what makes a developer valuable is their skill in communication, not their skill in coding.
- wyclif 4y ago
  This is precisely what the parent commenter doesn't understand. He thinks the job of a programmer is all about technical skills. In fact that is only a part of the job. You need to be able to write, speak, and communicate in fluent English to be effective. And most Indian nationals, Peruvians, Columbians, et al cannot rise to that level.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    There are a huge number of English speaking countries with cultures very similar to the US which have much lower average wages.
    - pb7 4y ago
      Large gaps in timezones though which impacts communication.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    92.2% of the American-born native English speakers I work with can't write worth a damn, either.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      You're standards are to high. The kinds of mistakes native speakers make are often technical -- not using commas correctly, dangling they're participles, switching affect/effect. And that's because they're transcribing the voice in there head. Annoying to grammer prescriptivists but the meaning ends up being clear and understood. A'int gonna end up being authors or technical writers for sure but it doesn't get in the way of actually communicating.
      - 4y ago
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> and they will do the same work for a fraction of the price. For a while. I worked with some excellent remote developers in other countries, but it always felt like a revolving door as the pivoted from one remote job to the next so they could get a $5K increase here and a $5K increase there. Eventually we had applicants demanding salaries equivalent to MCOL United States salaries, so we just went back to hiring local for a lot of the roles. Hiring and managing remote workers comes with a lot of financial and managerial overhead. Once companies catch on, it's just to easy to go in and snipe entire teams from one company by giving them nominal raises.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> Americans like to think they have a monopoly on skilled programmers. Almost no American in the tech industry thinks that, given how many of our co-workers aren't (or at least weren't born as) American. > But the reality is that most countries have them and they will do the same work for a fraction of the price. At the high end of the tech labor market, it is actually a world market for talent, meaning the talent goes where they can make the most money, and bargains are hard to find because people are not so immobile (e.g. due to H1Bs). > Everything is done over the internet these days so it doesn't matter that much where you are located. This is true, but top talent is still going to demand top dollar, even if you let them live in a LCOL region, since they can just move to a HCOL region otherwise.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  > Almost no American in the tech industry thinks that, given how many of our co-workers aren't (or at least weren't born as) American. And yet nearly every American is vehemently against the H1B visa which is the only way for 99% of non American tech workers to work in the U.S. and not do the same work outside the US.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    > And yet nearly every American is vehemently against the H1B visa That is a very broad generalization, considering 27% of Americans are foreign born. Yes, the MAGA crowd is largely against H1Bs (and even here you'll find lots of exceptions), but they didn't win the last election. > which is the only way for 99% of non American tech workers to work in the U.S. and not do the same work outside the US. And yet, America has a lot of H1Bs and greencard holders, unlike China or India themselves (I say this having worked on a Z work visa in China for 9 years).

whaleofatw2022 4y ago

We still have a monopoly on good language practices for American english and/or AFAIK how to actually build something that solves business needs rather than requirements. We saw similar between 2005ish-2015ish. Lots of offshoring where you could get whatever you 'wanted' built, but it was exactly what you 'wanted' and not what actually made sense. By this I am referring to contract houses that weren't quite 'code genies' but still would deliver products that were barely workable upon delivery. More than one shop I worked at over the last decade actually -suffered- from this. Magically, most orgs who could figure out how to deliver even semi passable/realistic functional requirements could get the same done in house for a LOT less money.

Gigachad 4y ago
You are probably thinking about dirt cheap outsourcing to places like India. When part of the shift that's happening now is internal hiring of full time developers in places like Australia or the UK where the language skills and culture is pretty much the same but the wages far lower.
- whaleofatw2022 4y ago
  The cost of Australian software historically gives me pause to at least part of your comment. That said, yes a lot of counties can provide very competent software development and houses.. but the communication time gap is often still present. Another shop I worked at had EU devs that were competent, but that communication gap was still a big hurdle.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  Indian developers are far superior to Australian and UK developers. It’s just that you’re hiring a million Indian developers for every 1000 UK developers, so is it surprising that the average Indian developer doesn’t seem as good?
  - bbg2401 4y ago
    Tone down your racism and ethno-nationalism.

jimbob45 4y ago

99% of what makes a developer valuable is their skill in communication, not their skill in coding.

wyclif 4y ago
This is precisely what the parent commenter doesn't understand. He thinks the job of a programmer is all about technical skills. In fact that is only a part of the job. You need to be able to write, speak, and communicate in fluent English to be effective. And most Indian nationals, Peruvians, Columbians, et al cannot rise to that level.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  There are a huge number of English speaking countries with cultures very similar to the US which have much lower average wages.
  - pb7 4y ago
    Large gaps in timezones though which impacts communication.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  92.2% of the American-born native English speakers I work with can't write worth a damn, either.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    You're standards are to high. The kinds of mistakes native speakers make are often technical -- not using commas correctly, dangling they're participles, switching affect/effect. And that's because they're transcribing the voice in there head. Annoying to grammer prescriptivists but the meaning ends up being clear and understood. A'int gonna end up being authors or technical writers for sure but it doesn't get in the way of actually communicating.
    - 4y ago

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> and they will do the same work for a fraction of the price. For a while. I worked with some excellent remote developers in other countries, but it always felt like a revolving door as the pivoted from one remote job to the next so they could get a $5K increase here and a $5K increase there. Eventually we had applicants demanding salaries equivalent to MCOL United States salaries, so we just went back to hiring local for a lot of the roles. Hiring and managing remote workers comes with a lot of financial and managerial overhead. Once companies catch on, it's just to easy to go in and snipe entire teams from one company by giving them nominal raises.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

> Americans like to think they have a monopoly on skilled programmers. Almost no American in the tech industry thinks that, given how many of our co-workers aren't (or at least weren't born as) American. > But the reality is that most countries have them and they will do the same work for a fraction of the price. At the high end of the tech labor market, it is actually a world market for talent, meaning the talent goes where they can make the most money, and bargains are hard to find because people are not so immobile (e.g. due to H1Bs). > Everything is done over the internet these days so it doesn't matter that much where you are located. This is true, but top talent is still going to demand top dollar, even if you let them live in a LCOL region, since they can just move to a HCOL region otherwise.

rhaway84773 4y ago
> Almost no American in the tech industry thinks that, given how many of our co-workers aren't (or at least weren't born as) American. And yet nearly every American is vehemently against the H1B visa which is the only way for 99% of non American tech workers to work in the U.S. and not do the same work outside the US.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  > And yet nearly every American is vehemently against the H1B visa That is a very broad generalization, considering 27% of Americans are foreign born. Yes, the MAGA crowd is largely against H1Bs (and even here you'll find lots of exceptions), but they didn't win the last election. > which is the only way for 99% of non American tech workers to work in the U.S. and not do the same work outside the US. And yet, America has a lot of H1Bs and greencard holders, unlike China or India themselves (I say this having worked on a Z work visa in China for 9 years).