6 ms·

In the UK that would be an instant driving test failure. The moment a pedestrian puts their feet on the crossing they have absolute right of way & it’s on you

• bombcar 3y ago
  One side-effect of self driving cars is going to be finally having to deal with the reality of impossible laws. If every single vehicle followed traffic laws perfectly, it'd likely cause chaos and gridlock. For example, in this case, even someone standing near a crosswalk might be enough for all vehicles to refuse to enter.
  • giobox 3y ago
    I also think the desire of some for an absolutist interpretation of driving regulation in this thread would result in chaos too. How many seconds is one supposed to stop at a stop sign? The law is silent on the matter. There is so much around laws or rule systems that forms as conventions around the rules that are often just as important as the text of the rules themselves. See also solid white lines (do not cross) in the US. People cross them for pragmatic reasons in many locations all the time, often in full view of law enforcement. There are also road users for whom laws are rarely enforced or more frequently disobeyed, such as cyclists. In many places cyclists are bound to obey the same traffic lights as motor vehicles. This plainly doesn't happen 100 percent of the time, and again is often tolerated by law enforcement. A car with an absolutist interpretation of driving regulations would therefore still have to deal with the law enforcement and others may not share in this view.
    • michaelmior 3y ago
      > How many seconds is one supposed to stop at a stop sign? I don't see a need for the law to specify a time. You have to stop and you proceed as soon as you have the right of way and it is safe to do so.
      • giobox 3y ago
        My point still stands regardless. Rule systems are more than just their printed texts.
      • frumper 3y ago
        A strict interpretation by your car may mean that it yields to a person standing just off the curb is in the crosswalk with no intention of crossing. Your car won't go though because the law says they have the right of way.
        • hgsgm 3y ago
          Not moving when given the chance is indicative of non-intent. For a working AI, it can still stop safely if the pedestrian starts moving into the street in the few seconds the car is crossing.
          • frumper 3y ago
            What if someone stands in the cross walk, or is intentionally slowly moving to cause an issue?
            • michaelmior 3y ago
              I'm not sure what else I would do when driving except to wait for them to move. I suppose if it became clear that someone was intentionally trying to obstruct me, I might try to slowly move around them if it was safe to do so.
    • flangola7 3y ago
      This is one of the fundamental pain points of AI. All those moral dilemmas and trolley scenarios we've philosophized about since ancient history? Well it's come time to choose. Computers do exactly what they are told to do and never do what you did not tell them to do. They do not have any common sense that you did not give them. As you build more and more capable computers and give them more influence and control, you damn well better have an exhaustive, complete and comprehensive set of values for it to follow.
      • ryandvm 3y ago
        Mmmm. That's the case with programs, but it's definitely not the case with neural nets. Much like you or I, NNs do things based on training, experience, and data.
        • flangola7 3y ago
          They do, but that doesn't mean our data has the answer for every possible scenario. This is important because AI will run into ethical scenarios humans rarely or never have to think about. At first this will be due to AI's one current superhuman ability: speed; a classic is the do you drive into the old couple or the little kid car scenario. It's not really an issue for humans because the situation is over before we can make more than a reflexive response, but the AI can take its time to make a concrete decision. This isn't a thing we spend a lot of time thinking or blogging about and a societal consensus probably has not formed and wouldn't show up in the data. Presumably the AI would pick at more or less random as we are forced to do, but I can see an entity capable of superspeed choosing to perform random actions as causing other as yet unforseen problems. The big pinch is if and when we create transformational AI. We will be presented with options we had never imagined being possible. Do you keep Mars as a memory of the old days, or do you use its crust to construct interstellar spaceships and build better lives for Earth humans? Do you allow humans to live lives as they do now, or do you modify their biology and neurology to live longer lives and never engage in antisocial behavior? These are lazy obvious examples that I came up with but there will be many less-cosmic decisions we will be presented with that we absolutely do not have an existing moral template to guide us.
    • freejazz 3y ago
      > absolutist interpretation What's absolutist - the driver blew right through the crosswalk while someone was literally in it...
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  • Symbiote 3y ago
    Standing close enough to a crossing that you appear to be preparing to cross is easily enough for drivers to stop and wait in some European countries, e.g. here in Denmark. If the pedestrian remains still, but the driver sees no reason they shouldn't cross, eventually the driver might well gesture, honk etc.
    • hgsgm 3y ago
      An AI should never make an illegal honk like that.
  • freejazz 3y ago
    Sorry, are you saying that it'd be a problem that pedestrians could cross when they intend to? I'm not following
    • bombcar 3y ago
      No, that a human could be standing near but not in a crosswalk, talking. The law says you must treat them as attempting to cross, even though it is obvious they are not. Caress like this abound.
      • freejazz 3y ago
        I don't think the law says that you need to treat people not entering a crosswalk as attempting to cross it. We can play this game all day if you just want to be obtuse about using words. But nothing you described was impossible to work out, nor was the scenario you most immediately described in your recent post even remotely troublesome. Do you mean if people are in the crosswalk but don't cross? How often does that really happen? Ironic considering that in this case, the pedestrian was in the crosswalk and the car drove through anyway. Pretty dangerous IMO
• DennisP 3y ago
  In my state, the law says the Tesla's action here is fine, since the pedestrian wasn't close to the car's lane. > Vehicles are required to stop when you are crossing their lane or when you are close to entering their lane.[1] For California, I couldn't find an independent reference for the situation here but did find one saying a stopped driver doesn't have to wait until the pedestrian fully exits the crosswalk.[2] [1] https://leddylaw.com/what-are-my-rights-as-a-pedestrian-in-south-carolina https://leddylaw.com/what-are-my-rights-as-a-pedestrian-in-s... [2] https://www.karlaw.com/blog/do-drivers-have-to-wait-for-pedestrians-to-cross-the-street https://www.karlaw.com/blog/do-drivers-have-to-wait-for-pede...
  • ohgodplsno 3y ago
    On a 2 lane road, you are about two seconds away from entering the other lane the moment you step on one. How damn close does it have to be ? Also, even taking law out of account: stop when there are goddamn pedestrians. At all times. Even if the law is with you. Heaven is full of people who had the right of way, and I'd rather not add each individual's perception of "but I had the right to speed up as the deceased was crossing!".
  • ahahahahah 3y ago
    For California the law is here: https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2022/code-veh/division-11/chapter-5/section-21950/ https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2022/code-veh/divisi... The Tesla vehicle violated this. subdivision (3) kinda implicitly confirms that a driver doesn't need to wait for a pedestrian to fully exit (what allows for that though is just the definition of and requirements around "right of way").
    • wilg 3y ago
      It’s not clear cut IMO. It doesn’t say you have to stop because a pedestrian is in the crosswalk, just that cars have to yield the right of way to pedestrians. You could argue no yielding was required because there was no conflict, the car and the pedestrian just proceeded at pace and did not interfere with each other. Also, since we’re being pedantic, the vehicle can’t violate the law because it isn’t a person. The driver would be in violation.
• michaelmior 3y ago
  > If Tesla exports this self driving code to the UK I'm guessing the vast majority of training data is collected in countries with right-hand traffic flow. I suspect it might not be so straightforward to adapt to countries with left-hand traffic.
  • hgsgm 3y ago
    It's just a sign flip. Mirror the incoming video and the outgoing commands.
    • aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 3y ago
      Tell that to the neural network.
    • michaelmior 3y ago
      If the incoming video is mirrored, how can signs be read?
• taylodl 3y ago
  That's the law in my state here in the States as well. The pedestrian has the absolute right-of-way in the crosswalk and you are to stop for a pedestrian waiting to enter the crosswalk. And I live in a car-centric state - as none of our cities have much in the way of public transportation other than a bus. Maybe we need to adopt your squiggly lines so it's easier for FSD to recognize when it needs to be paying attention?
• Symbiote 3y ago
  Britain goes further than many countries: once you've stopped, you aren't allowed to start again until the whole crossing is clear of pedestrians.