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Tesla’s “Full Self-Driving” sees pedestrian, chooses not to slow down
- cs702 3y agoHuman drivers in my city routinely do the same thing, so from my perspective the car behaved in a very-human-like manner.[a] A longer video by the same person showing FSD Beta 11.4.1 driving his car is here (40+ minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFyPqSu8Vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFyPqSu8Vo --- [a] What's more, when there's a line of pedestrians about to cross an intersection, which will block it, I've seen human drivers accelerate to avoid getting stuck behind the line. Actually, I see that all the time when there are a lot of pedestrians downtown.
- mcguire 3y agoBack in Austin, it was pretty common for pedestrians to have to stop and wait in the crosswalk while cars continued to pass. I've also seen cars pulled over by police for doing so.
- whazor 3y agoI noticed EV drivers are much more willing to break and wait for people crossing. I think it is because of regenerative breaking and quick acceleration, which makes the cost of stopping much smaller. Or negative if you get a kick out of acceleration.
- ryandvm 3y agoFair enough, but better than a human is supposed to be the point of all this. Who needs self driving cars if they're going to be mowing people down while they check their Instagram?
- freejazz 3y agoI don't get this argument by the tweeter: "In places like San Francisco, pedestrians enter the crosswalk before you've completely crossed rather than waiting. " I'm city person, lived in NYC most of my life and continue to do so today, and it's pretty clear to me that the pedestrian entered the crosswalk (on the other side) before the tesla made it to the crosswalk... like... it's on video...
- input_sh 3y agoI mean the tweeter is called Whole Mars Catalog and if you click on their profile it's basically all about fanboying Musk and Tesla. Kudos to them for sharing the video to begin with, but it doesn't surprise me one bit that they're trying to spin it so it's actually the pedestrian's fault, or SF's fault, or city mentality, basically anyone's but Tesla's.
- WeylandYutani 3y agoIn car centric countries it's always the pedestrian or cyclist fault. Maybe because not being in a car is associated with poverty IDK but the hatred is bizarre.
- sandofsky 3y agoTheir previous claim to fame: Is there anyone in the Bay Area with a child who can run in front of my car on Full Self-Driving Beta to make a point? I promise I won't run them over... (will disengage if needed) (this is a serious request) https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1557112809132945408 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1557112809132945408
- KyeRussell 3y ago[dead]
- Yizahi 3y agoUnironic usage of the word "bullish" is a dead giveaway that a person is working full time at a traveling kids entertainment facility. Very convenient for the readers :) .
- nuancebydefault 3y agoI don't want to sound pedantic. If you would put a camera in a 1000 cars fully driven by humans and film each for a day, how many of such recordings could be found? I guess a handful. The real question is... how far off is this technology from practical human driving and when (not whether) it will surpass.
- mikestew 3y agoIf you would put a camera in a 1000 cars fully driven by humans and film each for a day, how many of such recordings could be found? Already with the whataboutism? Automated driving is supposed to promise safer driving than humans, not bug-for-bug compatibility.
- wilg 3y agoThis is an asinine argument. It’s not necessarily safer right out of the gate! Maybe they just need to fix the bug.
- nuancebydefault 3y agoEvery bug needs solving. But also: every bug will _never_ be solved. Why would you think any system or even component should be perfect? Name one perfect system. More simple systems like traffic lights, headlights, tires, brakes,... each of them can fail. Trains can derail, so we should not trust trains?
- nickthegreek 3y agoThe “bug” involves a breathing, thinking human being who didn’t opt into being a lab rat.
- dondeng 3y agoBut if humans do this 10 out of 1000 and automated cars do it 1 out of 1000 times isn’t the automated driving safer than humans then?
- DennisP 3y ago
- LeoPanthera 3y agoT̵o̵ ̵g̵e̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵c̵l̵i̵c̵k̵b̵a̵i̵t̵ ̵h̵e̵a̵d̵l̵i̵n̵e̵ ̵o̵u̵t̵ ̵o̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵w̵a̵y̵:̵ ̵T̵h̵e̵ ̵p̵e̵d̵e̵s̵t̵r̵i̵a̵n̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵s̵i̵d̵e̵ ̵o̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵r̵o̵a̵d̵.̵ ̵N̵o̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵p̵a̵t̵h̵ ̵o̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵v̵e̵h̵i̵c̵l̵e̵.̵ Edit: I'm embarrassed to say that I did not watch the video. It's much worse than the description implies. The pedestrian was in the crosswalk, and crossing. FSD absolutely should have stopped. However, as the article points out, "California law requires drivers to come to a complete stop for pedestrians at crosswalks". I see this as a failure of the FSD development process, not of FSD. Tesla's software devs simply aren't familiar with driving laws. They may not even be drivers - it's not a requirement. You'd expect Tesla to simply teach the algorithm to follow driving laws, but they haven't done that.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoTesla purposefully programs its FSD to drive "human-like" rather than strictly following the laws. For example, it will go with the flow of traffic rather than strictly following the speed limit.
- LeoPanthera 3y agoAh yes, but that's under the control of the driver. I can set it to obey the speed limit easily. Where's the option for "stop for pedestrians at crosswalks"?
- michaelmior 3y ago> Where's the option for "stop for pedestrians at crosswalks"? I really hope this doesn't happen. Configurable driving behaviors might make sense to a degree, but this feels dangerous. I would hope that the Department of Transportation (or equivalent in other countries) would regulate such things.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoLol people are still falling for this scam? There is a fool born every minute I guess.
- pja 3y agoIn the UK that would be an instant driving test failure. The moment a pedestrian puts their feet on the crossing they have absolute right of way & it’s on you to stop. If a pedestrian is waiting to cross, you’re expected to stop. If Tesla exports this self driving code to the UK it’s going to cause accidents because people will absolutely not be expecting this behaviour from vehicles on the road in the UK.
- bombcar 3y agoOne side-effect of self driving cars is going to be finally having to deal with the reality of impossible laws. If every single vehicle followed traffic laws perfectly, it'd likely cause chaos and gridlock. For example, in this case, even someone standing near a crosswalk might be enough for all vehicles to refuse to enter.
- giobox 3y agoI also think the desire of some for an absolutist interpretation of driving regulation in this thread would result in chaos too. How many seconds is one supposed to stop at a stop sign? The law is silent on the matter. There is so much around laws or rule systems that forms as conventions around the rules that are often just as important as the text of the rules themselves. See also solid white lines (do not cross) in the US. People cross them for pragmatic reasons in many locations all the time, often in full view of law enforcement. There are also road users for whom laws are rarely enforced or more frequently disobeyed, such as cyclists. In many places cyclists are bound to obey the same traffic lights as motor vehicles. This plainly doesn't happen 100 percent of the time, and again is often tolerated by law enforcement. A car with an absolutist interpretation of driving regulations would therefore still have to deal with the law enforcement and others may not share in this view.
- michaelmior 3y ago> How many seconds is one supposed to stop at a stop sign? I don't see a need for the law to specify a time. You have to stop and you proceed as soon as you have the right of way and it is safe to do so.
- CobaltFire 3y agoThe benchmark for this situation shouldn’t be “it was as safe/safer than a human” when we have to append “while clearly breaking the law”.
- nluken 3y agoThis is a non-story. It's pretty clear to me the car should have stopped (and I question the original tweeter's road judgement for suggesting otherwise) but plenty of bad drivers do the same thing in the city.
- LeoPanthera 3y ago"FSD doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be better than humans." That's what I hear from the pro-AI guys all the time. So you can have that, or "well humans do that too", but not both.
- nluken 3y agoThat isn't what I'm saying. I agree that this behavior needs to be fixed. I'm saying that "Tesla's self-driving algorithm makes an error at a single intersection in SF" doesn't meet my threshold for news any more than a human doing that would. A story called "Teslas systemically drive unsafely at intersections", with an investigation into this kind of behavior at mass scale? That's actual journalism, not just a glorified quote retweet.
- rurp 3y agoFSD already introduces new failure modes, if it's going to hardcode human mistakes as well what's even the point? This is also assuming that FSD runs through crosswalks at the same rate as human drivers, but it might be much more frequent. If Tesla actually backed up their safety claims with data we could check and verify, but they are famously reticent to provide evidence of how their cars perform that hasn't been cherry picked.
- diversionfactor 3y agoAfter watching the video several times, I would definitely have slowed down seeing the pedestrian near the cross walk a hundred meters back, and would definitely have stopped in this instance. You never know when someone is going to run or not look for a car and being cautious saves a life. I live and have lived in a city as a driver for decades in multiple countries including in very dense areas and in no case would the FSD behavior be acceptable. We know from the Uber example this kind of automated disregard of pedestrians can result in death. This is a much bigger and more serious issue, dozens of pedestrians are killed by cars every year in my city.
- HellDunkel 3y agoIt may be necessary to drive a little more „human“ to improve the overall FSD experience. But once you start blurring the line of lawful/unlawful you get yourself into muddy waters. Seems as if Tesla is pulling out of their robotaxi/FSD plans without admitting so. Not good. Nonetheless i think they are doing some things right. a) they make quite an effort to visulize the mind of vehicle and b) they do not try to pretend safety by stacking up all sorts of limitations (geofencing, highways, top speed). If oly they marketed the system as ADAS and designed the UX as such and would not have made these silly robotaxi claims…
- Yizahi 3y agoReminds me of this masterpiece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S75Rfva9O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S75Rfva9O8 Maybe the car knew something, eh? :)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hgsgm 3y agoVery human. This is what you want if you want AI to be Artificial Human Intelligence.
- wilg 3y agoWorth pointing out that this behavior is in the release notes: > - Improved ego's assertiveness for crossing pedestrians in cases where ego can easily and safely cross before the pedestrian.
- 0max 3y agoThat's what happens when your leadership has third world carbrain (especially as a mode of exclusion) expectations.
- mock-possum 3y agoWhat does “third world carbrain” mean?