4 ms·

This is why all those "don't have outdoor cats, they kill all the birds" stories annoy me. At best they're misguided, at worse they're intentionally misleading

This is why all those "don't have outdoor cats, they kill all the birds" stories annoy me. At best they're misguided, at worse they're intentionally misleading to hide the fact that pesticides and farming practices are actually at fault. (In Europe, on other continents the story may be different) Similar to the CO2 footprint, it's another way to individualize social issues and distract from large corporate sources of environmental destruction.

winrid 3y ago
Yeah, my understanding is the poor regulation of the emissions controls on container ships is huge.
Y-bar 3y ago
Precisely! The people reiterating that study also acts like it is valid all around the world, including places where cats are not invasive. For example in mainland and southern Europe the cat has been tamed since at least 1200 BC and the wild cat has been since the ice age. Birds in those areas have long since adapted, as evident by the wild cat which predominately hunts ground-dwelling mammals. It is of course a good argument to consider the study generally valid on e.g. the British isles and North America where the cat was more recently introduced into the fauna.
msrenee 3y ago
Ok, don't have outdoor cats because they live short lives with high risk of dying painfully. They definitely do stalk feeders and add to the stressors already in place for bird species. More than one thing can contribute to the reduction of bird populations.
- nathan_compton 3y ago
  This seems nuts to me. Keeping a cat in an apartment its entire life is psychological torture and almost all the indoor only cats I've ever met are neurotic. If you don't want to let your cat move freely, I suggest just not having one.
  - msrenee 3y ago
    What do you consider neurotic in a cat? Have you known many people who own outdoor cats? It's a rare story that doesn't end with "then an asshole in a truck ran him down", "I think a coyote got him", "I think a hawk got him", "I never saw him again", "the neighborhood kids were chasing him with sticks", "found him nearly starved and bleeding", "lost a fight to a dog", or one of many other terrible ways to go. Every one of those is a true story from someone I know. The hawks, coyotes, and cars having happened to innumerable outdoor cats whose owners I've been acquainted with. So, in my opinion, if you think a cat can only live a decent life outdoors, you shouldn't get one.
    - nathan_compton 3y ago
      Everyone and everything dies. You'd live longer in captivity too.
      - msrenee 3y ago
        What behaviors of indoor cats do you define as neurotic?
HeckFeck 3y ago
We can't discount the effect of the increase in cat ownership and roaming: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kil... "A study published in April estimated that UK cats kill 160 to 270 million animals annually, a quarter of them birds. The real figure is likely to be even higher, as the study used the 2011 pet cat population of 9.5 million; it is now closer to 12 million, boosted by the pandemic pet craze" The study didn't include animals that cats killed and abandoned in the wild, so it is likely higher still.
- kuschku 3y ago
  Quoting your own linked article: The UK’s largest bird charity, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), is not particularly concerned about the impact of cats on the British mainland. Instead it focuses on what it says is driving UK bird declines: global warming, intensive agriculture and expanding towns and cities leading to habitat and food loss. “While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are,” said a spokesperson.
  - HeckFeck 3y ago
    I agree that the environmental changes are affecting birdlife as well. But even taking the lower end of the estimate of the number killed by cats, 40 million birds each year is a felt loss. The RSPB may opine as they wish, but that's the data. Anecdotally, my neighbour's cat is known to bring home as many as three birds on some weeks. I've seen them stalk my bird table using the bushes as cover. Data + eyewitness observation makes a compelling case.
    - kuschku 3y ago
      If you read the article, they actually argue that the cats don't really have an effect because those 40 million birds are usually of species that aren't endangered and are usually birds that otherwise wouldn't have made it anyway. Though 40 million dead birds sounds like a lot, in regions where wildlife had millenia to adapt to cats' existence – in continental Europe cats have existed for tenthousands of years – it’s not a significant issue. And it's sad that so much time and energy is wasted on this discussion when people are still spraying their own backyards with pesticides and destroying "weeds", which are actually necessary for insects, and as result birds, to thrive.
Veen 3y ago
Is this a U.S. thing? Where I live—a rural part of the UK—I don't think anyone thinks twice about letting their cats out. It's just what you do with cats.
- immibis 3y ago
  It's an environmentally conscious person thing. Most people in most countries don't think twice about having cats or letting them out - even though they kill birds.
  - mahogany 3y ago
    But what are the environmental effects of harvesting & manufacturing the food for the cats that are kept indoors? This is always left out of the equation in these conversations. Cats have to eat some animal to survive. To me, it seems bad for the environment to have cats as pets at all... (I have a cat)
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Most pet food is created from primarily "waste" meat product from the human food supply chain is my understanding? Though that may be changing.
- kuschku 3y ago
  European cats aren't native to northern america, and as result, they're quite an invasive species with significant harm to the ecosystem. But that's not just limited to cats, that issue applies even to different species of lawn grass. The other issue is destruction of ecosystem in the EU, where cats are native and primarily used as scapegoat. Both of these need entirely different solutions, but "don't let cats outside" is very oversimplified and just serves to divide people.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Entirely two different environments -- cats are a threat to birds in one of the oasis environments outside of modern mass agriculture -- urban areas. More and more, cities are becoming a place where certain key species actually find refuge. Unleashing cats in that environment is cruel to both cats and birds. That, and if cats are our friends and we care about them, we should be sheltering them from the hostilities of an outdoor environment. I have had enough cats I knew in the past die from injuries from cars, or diseases/injuries they acquired outside to feel that it's just best to keep ours inside. We live rural, on 6 acres, and she loves it outside, naturally, but so do birds we love. Would she be "happier" outside? Maybe. But considering all trade-offs, I'll keep her pampered inside, and let the birds nest on my deck.

winrid 3y ago

Yeah, my understanding is the poor regulation of the emissions controls on container ships is huge.

Y-bar 3y ago

Precisely! The people reiterating that study also acts like it is valid all around the world, including places where cats are not invasive. For example in mainland and southern Europe the cat has been tamed since at least 1200 BC and the wild cat has been since the ice age. Birds in those areas have long since adapted, as evident by the wild cat which predominately hunts ground-dwelling mammals. It is of course a good argument to consider the study generally valid on e.g. the British isles and North America where the cat was more recently introduced into the fauna.

msrenee 3y ago

Ok, don't have outdoor cats because they live short lives with high risk of dying painfully. They definitely do stalk feeders and add to the stressors already in place for bird species. More than one thing can contribute to the reduction of bird populations.

nathan_compton 3y ago
This seems nuts to me. Keeping a cat in an apartment its entire life is psychological torture and almost all the indoor only cats I've ever met are neurotic. If you don't want to let your cat move freely, I suggest just not having one.
- msrenee 3y ago
  What do you consider neurotic in a cat? Have you known many people who own outdoor cats? It's a rare story that doesn't end with "then an asshole in a truck ran him down", "I think a coyote got him", "I think a hawk got him", "I never saw him again", "the neighborhood kids were chasing him with sticks", "found him nearly starved and bleeding", "lost a fight to a dog", or one of many other terrible ways to go. Every one of those is a true story from someone I know. The hawks, coyotes, and cars having happened to innumerable outdoor cats whose owners I've been acquainted with. So, in my opinion, if you think a cat can only live a decent life outdoors, you shouldn't get one.
  - nathan_compton 3y ago
    Everyone and everything dies. You'd live longer in captivity too.
    - msrenee 3y ago
      What behaviors of indoor cats do you define as neurotic?

HeckFeck 3y ago

We can't discount the effect of the increase in cat ownership and roaming: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kil... "A study published in April estimated that UK cats kill 160 to 270 million animals annually, a quarter of them birds. The real figure is likely to be even higher, as the study used the 2011 pet cat population of 9.5 million; it is now closer to 12 million, boosted by the pandemic pet craze" The study didn't include animals that cats killed and abandoned in the wild, so it is likely higher still.

kuschku 3y ago
Quoting your own linked article: The UK’s largest bird charity, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), is not particularly concerned about the impact of cats on the British mainland. Instead it focuses on what it says is driving UK bird declines: global warming, intensive agriculture and expanding towns and cities leading to habitat and food loss. “While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are,” said a spokesperson.
- HeckFeck 3y ago
  I agree that the environmental changes are affecting birdlife as well. But even taking the lower end of the estimate of the number killed by cats, 40 million birds each year is a felt loss. The RSPB may opine as they wish, but that's the data. Anecdotally, my neighbour's cat is known to bring home as many as three birds on some weeks. I've seen them stalk my bird table using the bushes as cover. Data + eyewitness observation makes a compelling case.
  - kuschku 3y ago
    If you read the article, they actually argue that the cats don't really have an effect because those 40 million birds are usually of species that aren't endangered and are usually birds that otherwise wouldn't have made it anyway. Though 40 million dead birds sounds like a lot, in regions where wildlife had millenia to adapt to cats' existence – in continental Europe cats have existed for tenthousands of years – it’s not a significant issue. And it's sad that so much time and energy is wasted on this discussion when people are still spraying their own backyards with pesticides and destroying "weeds", which are actually necessary for insects, and as result birds, to thrive.

Veen 3y ago

Is this a U.S. thing? Where I live—a rural part of the UK—I don't think anyone thinks twice about letting their cats out. It's just what you do with cats.

immibis 3y ago
It's an environmentally conscious person thing. Most people in most countries don't think twice about having cats or letting them out - even though they kill birds.
- mahogany 3y ago
  But what are the environmental effects of harvesting & manufacturing the food for the cats that are kept indoors? This is always left out of the equation in these conversations. Cats have to eat some animal to survive. To me, it seems bad for the environment to have cats as pets at all... (I have a cat)
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Most pet food is created from primarily "waste" meat product from the human food supply chain is my understanding? Though that may be changing.
kuschku 3y ago
European cats aren't native to northern america, and as result, they're quite an invasive species with significant harm to the ecosystem. But that's not just limited to cats, that issue applies even to different species of lawn grass. The other issue is destruction of ecosystem in the EU, where cats are native and primarily used as scapegoat. Both of these need entirely different solutions, but "don't let cats outside" is very oversimplified and just serves to divide people.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Entirely two different environments -- cats are a threat to birds in one of the oasis environments outside of modern mass agriculture -- urban areas. More and more, cities are becoming a place where certain key species actually find refuge. Unleashing cats in that environment is cruel to both cats and birds. That, and if cats are our friends and we care about them, we should be sheltering them from the hostilities of an outdoor environment. I have had enough cats I knew in the past die from injuries from cars, or diseases/injuries they acquired outside to feel that it's just best to keep ours inside. We live rural, on 6 acres, and she loves it outside, naturally, but so do birds we love. Would she be "happier" outside? Maybe. But considering all trade-offs, I'll keep her pampered inside, and let the birds nest on my deck.