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I guess you're being sarcastic, but no, the COVID vaccines had clinical trials. My employer, a medical group in Seattle, had some of our staff volunteer with ru

I guess you're being sarcastic, but no, the COVID vaccines had clinical trials. My employer, a medical group in Seattle, had some of our staff volunteer with running the trials and others of us--myself included--were members of trials. The major difference was that several of the steps went in parallel instead of sequence because there was the money, people, and will to do it.

firstlink 3y ago
I never said anything about COVID vaccines. Why even bring them up?
- addisonl 3y ago
  You’re not fooling anyone.
  - ChrisClark 3y ago
    They always argue in bad faith and then feign ignorance.
    - salad-tycoon 3y ago
      May be surprising to you, now, and you may have forgotten the hell that was inflicted upon us but a lot of things were lost and a lot of lives were broken. https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1684100123.718_supercutunvaxxed.mp3 https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1684100123.718_supercutunvaxx...
      - fieryskiff11 3y ago
        [dead]
- tempestn 3y ago
  Then what exactly did you mean when you said, "I thought the science had evolved and clinical trials are no longer necessary for vaccine development"?
oldgradstudent 3y ago
> The major difference was that several of the steps went in parallel instead of sequence because there was the money, people, and will to do it. That not true. Important steps were skipped or shortened. For example, blinding was broken a relatively short time after the beginning of the trial. Participant were notified whether they were part of the trial group or placebo group. This makes the trial useless for the possibility of long term side effects.
- skeletonjelly 3y ago
  This feels like the kind of thing to include citations with, no?
  - oldgradstudent 3y ago
    > This feels like the kind of thing to include citations with, no? I assumed this was well known. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... Edit: note that the NPR piece missed the more important problem. While some people in the placebo group decided to continue the study and not to take the vaccine, blinding was irrecoverably broken, and what is worse, they are self selected, so randomization is gone as well.
    - kadoban 3y ago
      That link says that after the FDA authorized the shots, the study participants were offered them. Not that something was skipped _before_ authorization. Not giving these people the shots would have been immoral, it was already clear that they were effective and safe.
      - logicchains 3y ago
        >Not giving these people the shots would have been immoral, it was already clear that they were effective and safe. It was not clear that they were long-term safe; there was not enough long-term data yet to discover this. And by unblinding, they made it very hard to gather such data. Now that we have some such data, we see that indeed there are some non-trivial long term risks, such as doubling the risk of blood clotting in the eyes: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-023-00661-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-023-00661-7 .
stainablesteel 3y ago
the covid vaccines were fast-tracked by the fda and iirc biodistribution studies were sidelined early on and the LNPs ended up accumulating in the uterus of women mrna vaccines are a promising technology but LNPs being modeled after viral membranes do pose general dangers to the body as the full evolutionary dance of their development is something we may never know. seeing as membranes are, naturally, older than the receptors that have extended their functions, any contributions to 'tricking' host immune systems may have nasty effects at larger scales than would normally be given by natural infection. how they affect various molecular pathways can pose a multitudes of threats. there have already been widespread discussions on this topic and many others by appropriate experts in a wide variety of professions, you can find some here: https://lakaruppropet.se/international-conference-pandemic-strategies/ https://lakaruppropet.se/international-conference-pandemic-s...

firstlink 3y ago

I never said anything about COVID vaccines. Why even bring them up?

addisonl 3y ago
You’re not fooling anyone.
- ChrisClark 3y ago
  They always argue in bad faith and then feign ignorance.
  - salad-tycoon 3y ago
    May be surprising to you, now, and you may have forgotten the hell that was inflicted upon us but a lot of things were lost and a lot of lives were broken. https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1684100123.718_supercutunvaxxed.mp3 https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1684100123.718_supercutunvaxx...
    - fieryskiff11 3y ago
      [dead]
tempestn 3y ago
Then what exactly did you mean when you said, "I thought the science had evolved and clinical trials are no longer necessary for vaccine development"?

oldgradstudent 3y ago

> The major difference was that several of the steps went in parallel instead of sequence because there was the money, people, and will to do it. That not true. Important steps were skipped or shortened. For example, blinding was broken a relatively short time after the beginning of the trial. Participant were notified whether they were part of the trial group or placebo group. This makes the trial useless for the possibility of long term side effects.

skeletonjelly 3y ago
This feels like the kind of thing to include citations with, no?
- oldgradstudent 3y ago
  > This feels like the kind of thing to include citations with, no? I assumed this was well known. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... Edit: note that the NPR piece missed the more important problem. While some people in the placebo group decided to continue the study and not to take the vaccine, blinding was irrecoverably broken, and what is worse, they are self selected, so randomization is gone as well.
  - kadoban 3y ago
    That link says that after the FDA authorized the shots, the study participants were offered them. Not that something was skipped _before_ authorization. Not giving these people the shots would have been immoral, it was already clear that they were effective and safe.
    - logicchains 3y ago
      >Not giving these people the shots would have been immoral, it was already clear that they were effective and safe. It was not clear that they were long-term safe; there was not enough long-term data yet to discover this. And by unblinding, they made it very hard to gather such data. Now that we have some such data, we see that indeed there are some non-trivial long term risks, such as doubling the risk of blood clotting in the eyes: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-023-00661-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-023-00661-7 .

stainablesteel 3y ago

the covid vaccines were fast-tracked by the fda and iirc biodistribution studies were sidelined early on and the LNPs ended up accumulating in the uterus of women mrna vaccines are a promising technology but LNPs being modeled after viral membranes do pose general dangers to the body as the full evolutionary dance of their development is something we may never know. seeing as membranes are, naturally, older than the receptors that have extended their functions, any contributions to 'tricking' host immune systems may have nasty effects at larger scales than would normally be given by natural infection. how they affect various molecular pathways can pose a multitudes of threats. there have already been widespread discussions on this topic and many others by appropriate experts in a wide variety of professions, you can find some here: https://lakaruppropet.se/international-conference-pandemic-strategies/ https://lakaruppropet.se/international-conference-pandemic-s...