3 ms·

Which makes this a great time to observe that electricity != clean. That’s a non-sensical conclusion because electricity doesnt have the capacity to be clean no

Which makes this a great time to observe that electricity != clean. That’s a non-sensical conclusion because electricity doesnt have the capacity to be clean nor dirty. Its a storage format. Stored energy in gas just sitting in your gas tank doesnt really emit either. It’s ridiculous to conclude energy is clean by simply ignoring its emissions. Replacing an ICE vehicle with electricity isn’t necessarily lowering emissions. Its entirely dependent on how the electricity is generated. There is nothing inherently clean about switching from gas to electric. But many people only care about squeezing the balloon intil they cant see or know about the emissions.

danhor 4y ago
But most things have to be electric to be able to be clean. If we want lower emissions, most stuff needs to be electrified and supplied with cleaner electricity. The latter is increasing all around the world, the former is the more worrrying bit. But there are only few countries around the world where it's cleaner to run an ICE vehicle than an electric vehicle, due to the large inefficiencies of engines. (There are other approaches that don't involve electricity, but most very likely won't work or won't make sense on a large scale)
neuronic 4y ago
But CO2 emissions are not the only criteria for moving to electric cars. Ease of production, ease of repair, simpler technology than ICE, reduction of distributed emissions and pollution (air in the cities), just to count a few more... Even if CO2 emissions were the sole factor, it is very much possible to evolve the mode of electricity production to something more sustainable over the years. Electric cars may be running on coal-generated electricity today you can just change the source at any time immediately changing the overall equation.
arrrg 4y ago
Gas from the ground can never be clean. Electricity can. That’s why electrification is key to getting where we want to get. We need to both electrify and get electricity generation carbon emissions to zero. Also: electrification additionally offers efficiency gains in many places. Heat pumps and EVs, for example, are both (in general) more efficient than gas stoves and ICE cars.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > electrification additionally offers efficiency gains in many places. Heat pumps and EVs, for example, are both (in general) more efficient than gas stoves and ICE cars This is the kind of comment that makes the "electrification movement" look bad. You can't use a heat pump for a stove - the very high delta-T means maximum efficiency (COP) approaches 1, and you might as well use resistive. And generating cooking heat by burning gas at the point of use is certainly more efficient. Perhaps you meant to say that generating electricity from gas to run heat pumps is more efficient than gas boilers/furnaces for heat. From my vague recollection this is questionable, but it's at least close. The real argument is forward looking, especially with EV's intrinsic storage being able to utilize intermittent sources. "Gas stoves" has only entered the zeitgeist due to the culture war tempest in a teapot from New York phasing out municipal gas. Which is another ignorant overreach by the state - they should have focused on the collective problem of gas leaking from distribution pipes, and allowed for propane tanks at new single family homes that really want a gas stove. That would have preempted 90% of the valid criticism.
  - danhor 4y ago
    I'm guessing the original commenter was confused between heating with gas and cooking. Using electricity for cooking is much more efficient when using induction heating (which is the only kind of electric cooking anyone should use). Cooking with gas might be very efficient in converting gas to heat, but more than half of the heat gets lost without heating the pot/food and escapes by the side (approx. 40%), so using induction is about twice as efficient as using a gas stove (and conventional electric stoves aren't much worse). With the typical efficiency of a combined cycle gas plant, this cancels out to be approx. the same but gets better when more renewables are used (and, of course, worse with coal). Gas stoves still do have a lot of other valid issues and I am kind of amazed a culture war broke out over it (when e.g. in germany less than 10% of households use gas stoves without a massive demand for new gas stoves). > and allowed for propane tanks at new single family homes that really want a gas stove As far as I can tell from the reporting [1] this is stopping new gas hookups (maybe including the equipment at the time of construction?) but there seems to be at least nothing stopping you from adding a gas stove and powering it from propane. I was unfortunately unable to find the text in the bill (or the exact bill), but as far as I can tell nothing suggests otherwise and if that is the case: > That would have preempted 90% of the valid criticism. That doesn't seem to have happened [1]: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-bans-natural-gas-some-new-construction-2023-05-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-bans-natural...
abenga 4y ago
It is fine, even if all the energy is created by fossil fuel plants: 1) Large power plants + transmission + charging your electric car + driving your wheels is usually more efficient than small ICE engines. 2) Even if the grid is dirty, if many cars are electric, once we make the grid cleaner, those cars automatically become cleaner. Otherwise, we would have to replace grid power generation & cars both. 3) Power plants are (usually) far from population centers, ICE cars spew exhaust everywhere, all the time. Electrification of cars is a net good. All the time.
hannob 4y ago
> Replacing an ICE vehicle with electricity isn’t necessarily lowering emissions. Its entirely dependent on how the electricity is generated. This is wrong, however a common misconception. There are really two reasons you would want to replace an ICE with an EV. One is that electricity can be green, but the other is that an EV is a lot more efficient. Your ICE is not just burning fossil fuels, it also uses them mostly to produce hot air and only a fraction of the energy ends up in turning the wheel. ICEs are so inefficient that it's practically impossible to have grid electricity so dirty that the ICE would win.

danhor 4y ago

But most things have to be electric to be able to be clean. If we want lower emissions, most stuff needs to be electrified and supplied with cleaner electricity. The latter is increasing all around the world, the former is the more worrrying bit. But there are only few countries around the world where it's cleaner to run an ICE vehicle than an electric vehicle, due to the large inefficiencies of engines. (There are other approaches that don't involve electricity, but most very likely won't work or won't make sense on a large scale)

neuronic 4y ago

But CO2 emissions are not the only criteria for moving to electric cars. Ease of production, ease of repair, simpler technology than ICE, reduction of distributed emissions and pollution (air in the cities), just to count a few more... Even if CO2 emissions were the sole factor, it is very much possible to evolve the mode of electricity production to something more sustainable over the years. Electric cars may be running on coal-generated electricity today you can just change the source at any time immediately changing the overall equation.

arrrg 4y ago

Gas from the ground can never be clean. Electricity can. That’s why electrification is key to getting where we want to get. We need to both electrify and get electricity generation carbon emissions to zero. Also: electrification additionally offers efficiency gains in many places. Heat pumps and EVs, for example, are both (in general) more efficient than gas stoves and ICE cars.

mindslight 4y ago
> electrification additionally offers efficiency gains in many places. Heat pumps and EVs, for example, are both (in general) more efficient than gas stoves and ICE cars This is the kind of comment that makes the "electrification movement" look bad. You can't use a heat pump for a stove - the very high delta-T means maximum efficiency (COP) approaches 1, and you might as well use resistive. And generating cooking heat by burning gas at the point of use is certainly more efficient. Perhaps you meant to say that generating electricity from gas to run heat pumps is more efficient than gas boilers/furnaces for heat. From my vague recollection this is questionable, but it's at least close. The real argument is forward looking, especially with EV's intrinsic storage being able to utilize intermittent sources. "Gas stoves" has only entered the zeitgeist due to the culture war tempest in a teapot from New York phasing out municipal gas. Which is another ignorant overreach by the state - they should have focused on the collective problem of gas leaking from distribution pipes, and allowed for propane tanks at new single family homes that really want a gas stove. That would have preempted 90% of the valid criticism.
- danhor 4y ago
  I'm guessing the original commenter was confused between heating with gas and cooking. Using electricity for cooking is much more efficient when using induction heating (which is the only kind of electric cooking anyone should use). Cooking with gas might be very efficient in converting gas to heat, but more than half of the heat gets lost without heating the pot/food and escapes by the side (approx. 40%), so using induction is about twice as efficient as using a gas stove (and conventional electric stoves aren't much worse). With the typical efficiency of a combined cycle gas plant, this cancels out to be approx. the same but gets better when more renewables are used (and, of course, worse with coal). Gas stoves still do have a lot of other valid issues and I am kind of amazed a culture war broke out over it (when e.g. in germany less than 10% of households use gas stoves without a massive demand for new gas stoves). > and allowed for propane tanks at new single family homes that really want a gas stove As far as I can tell from the reporting [1] this is stopping new gas hookups (maybe including the equipment at the time of construction?) but there seems to be at least nothing stopping you from adding a gas stove and powering it from propane. I was unfortunately unable to find the text in the bill (or the exact bill), but as far as I can tell nothing suggests otherwise and if that is the case: > That would have preempted 90% of the valid criticism. That doesn't seem to have happened [1]: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-bans-natural-gas-some-new-construction-2023-05-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-bans-natural...

abenga 4y ago

It is fine, even if all the energy is created by fossil fuel plants: 1) Large power plants + transmission + charging your electric car + driving your wheels is usually more efficient than small ICE engines. 2) Even if the grid is dirty, if many cars are electric, once we make the grid cleaner, those cars automatically become cleaner. Otherwise, we would have to replace grid power generation & cars both. 3) Power plants are (usually) far from population centers, ICE cars spew exhaust everywhere, all the time. Electrification of cars is a net good. All the time.

hannob 4y ago

> Replacing an ICE vehicle with electricity isn’t necessarily lowering emissions. Its entirely dependent on how the electricity is generated. This is wrong, however a common misconception. There are really two reasons you would want to replace an ICE with an EV. One is that electricity can be green, but the other is that an EV is a lot more efficient. Your ICE is not just burning fossil fuels, it also uses them mostly to produce hot air and only a fraction of the energy ends up in turning the wheel. ICEs are so inefficient that it's practically impossible to have grid electricity so dirty that the ICE would win.