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Which is what hydrogen cars offer. An EV with very fast refueling. What people are missing is that there is no reason that all cars must be battery powered. It

by _hypx 3y ago

Which is what hydrogen cars offer. An EV with very fast refueling. What people are missing is that there is no reason that all cars must be battery powered. It's a weird myopia that is antithetical to Silicon Valley thinking, despite being widespread in SV.

slg 3y ago
Because hydrogen cars are less efficient, more expensive, more dangerous, and require more infrastructure than EVs. The speed of refueling isn’t enough of a justification to pursue hydrogen cars. They only really make sense if the raw materials for batteries become too scarce.
- _hypx 3y ago
  You are just repeating the marketing spiel of battery car makers. Of course, it would be very convenient for them if the problems of the competition are insurmountable and the upside totally pointless. There’s enormous incentive for them to convince people of that. The basic problem here is that fuel cells EVs literally are EVs. They work in incredibly similar ways. Any sort of fundamental analysis would lead you to the conclusion that if BEVs are possible, then so are FCEVs. Any differences are going to be minor, not substantial. Also, a lot of the criticisms are just pure FUD, like claiming hydrogen is more dangerous than lithium (both are very flammable materials). And finally, battery car makers really want you to think that every single car in the future will be a BEV, with not a single exception. That’s a pretty crazy claim, and people should recognize how ridiculous it sounds.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    A lot of driving is local, BEVs excel at that since people can charge at home. Hydrogen has a chance in long distance trucking and maybe aviation, where the lightweight energy density is a big win, although they’ll need to do something about volume for aviation. Unless we figure out fusion, producing hydrogen is going to primarily come from hydrocarbons, mainly natural gas. For Europe, that means they need to get it mostly from Russia, and Japan has to boat all their supply of that in.
    - defrost 3y ago
      In recent news (past five years), Australia mining magnates have invested in doubling the current global hydrogen production via green means (no hydro carbons) and have formed partnerships with Germany (part of Europe) to supply hydrogen. https://germany.embassy.gov.au/beln/hydrogen.html https://germany.embassy.gov.au/beln/hydrogen.html https://minister.dcceew.gov.au/bowen/media-releases/growing-australias-hydrogen-supply-chain-germany https://minister.dcceew.gov.au/bowen/media-releases/growing-... and other links from the Fortescue Metals sibsidiaries and other involved companies abound.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        If they can do it, it might be a nice replacement for NG. Transportation of both is about the same (assuming it can only be compressed so much?). Nuclear power might be ideal for hydrogen production as well (using excess of peak power to make hydrogen to store in huge tanks rather than charging a battery or pumped reservoir?).
        defrost 3y ago
        You queried the economics. Those involved are making bank on some 800 million tonnes of iron ore sales per annum shipped to China and hold leases on significant (as a percentage of global supply) Lithium deposits and Australian land in the millions of acres (a lot of sunlight). They understand industry at scale, the use of automation to deliver volume, the draw of large economies to sunlight abundant areas for processing and refining, etc. Transport is planned via Ammonia (hydrogen + nitrogen) - with an excess of sunlight and rapid improvements in domain of electrolysis making seawater as a basis economical, energy losses due to conversion can still be covered to turn a profit delivering bulk ammonia for fertilizer, power generation, and other applications to Europe. FFI (offshoot of FMI (Fortescue Metals)) has a handwaving set of web pages: https://ffi.com.au/technology/green-hydrogen/ https://ffi.com.au/technology/green-hydrogen/ and have lodged more detailed tech reports for their shareholders via the Sydney, London, and Canadian Exchanges (IIRC).
    - _hypx 3y ago
- upsidesinclude 3y ago
  What does a battery weigh? Do you know that conventional gas is delivered to homes around the country, currently, on a semi-annual basis to supply total heating needs, by truck? The infrastructure is nill for fuel cell vehicles. Battery vehicles will be wildly burdensome to the electrical infrastructure if widely adopted. Trucking via EV is currently completely unacheivable with the energy capacity available. No discussion of charging capacity. Also, it adds tons (actual tons) of weight to the non-cargo load

by _hypx 3y ago

slg 3y ago

Because hydrogen cars are less efficient, more expensive, more dangerous, and require more infrastructure than EVs. The speed of refueling isn’t enough of a justification to pursue hydrogen cars. They only really make sense if the raw materials for batteries become too scarce.

_hypx 3y ago
You are just repeating the marketing spiel of battery car makers. Of course, it would be very convenient for them if the problems of the competition are insurmountable and the upside totally pointless. There’s enormous incentive for them to convince people of that. The basic problem here is that fuel cells EVs literally are EVs. They work in incredibly similar ways. Any sort of fundamental analysis would lead you to the conclusion that if BEVs are possible, then so are FCEVs. Any differences are going to be minor, not substantial. Also, a lot of the criticisms are just pure FUD, like claiming hydrogen is more dangerous than lithium (both are very flammable materials). And finally, battery car makers really want you to think that every single car in the future will be a BEV, with not a single exception. That’s a pretty crazy claim, and people should recognize how ridiculous it sounds.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  A lot of driving is local, BEVs excel at that since people can charge at home. Hydrogen has a chance in long distance trucking and maybe aviation, where the lightweight energy density is a big win, although they’ll need to do something about volume for aviation. Unless we figure out fusion, producing hydrogen is going to primarily come from hydrocarbons, mainly natural gas. For Europe, that means they need to get it mostly from Russia, and Japan has to boat all their supply of that in.
  - defrost 3y ago
    In recent news (past five years), Australia mining magnates have invested in doubling the current global hydrogen production via green means (no hydro carbons) and have formed partnerships with Germany (part of Europe) to supply hydrogen. https://germany.embassy.gov.au/beln/hydrogen.html https://germany.embassy.gov.au/beln/hydrogen.html https://minister.dcceew.gov.au/bowen/media-releases/growing-australias-hydrogen-supply-chain-germany https://minister.dcceew.gov.au/bowen/media-releases/growing-... and other links from the Fortescue Metals sibsidiaries and other involved companies abound.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      If they can do it, it might be a nice replacement for NG. Transportation of both is about the same (assuming it can only be compressed so much?). Nuclear power might be ideal for hydrogen production as well (using excess of peak power to make hydrogen to store in huge tanks rather than charging a battery or pumped reservoir?).
      - defrost 3y ago
        You queried the economics. Those involved are making bank on some 800 million tonnes of iron ore sales per annum shipped to China and hold leases on significant (as a percentage of global supply) Lithium deposits and Australian land in the millions of acres (a lot of sunlight). They understand industry at scale, the use of automation to deliver volume, the draw of large economies to sunlight abundant areas for processing and refining, etc. Transport is planned via Ammonia (hydrogen + nitrogen) - with an excess of sunlight and rapid improvements in domain of electrolysis making seawater as a basis economical, energy losses due to conversion can still be covered to turn a profit delivering bulk ammonia for fertilizer, power generation, and other applications to Europe. FFI (offshoot of FMI (Fortescue Metals)) has a handwaving set of web pages: https://ffi.com.au/technology/green-hydrogen/ https://ffi.com.au/technology/green-hydrogen/ and have lodged more detailed tech reports for their shareholders via the Sydney, London, and Canadian Exchanges (IIRC).
  - _hypx 3y ago
upsidesinclude 3y ago
What does a battery weigh? Do you know that conventional gas is delivered to homes around the country, currently, on a semi-annual basis to supply total heating needs, by truck? The infrastructure is nill for fuel cell vehicles. Battery vehicles will be wildly burdensome to the electrical infrastructure if widely adopted. Trucking via EV is currently completely unacheivable with the energy capacity available. No discussion of charging capacity. Also, it adds tons (actual tons) of weight to the non-cargo load