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I've been going in range-anxiety circles with my dad for over 10 years. He insists he needs a car that can take him hundreds of miles into the wilderness for ca

by sowbug 3y ago

I've been going in range-anxiety circles with my dad for over 10 years. He insists he needs a car that can take him hundreds of miles into the wilderness for camping. I ask whether he's ever done that. He says no, but he intends to. He's 84. EV manufacturers should offer the 500-mile-range vehicle, but as an option. Pay $X for a car with 250 miles range, and an extra $20,000 for another 250 miles range. Most people will look at that price difference and conclude that their need to drive 8 hours without a pee break is and always will be aspirational.

revertmean 3y ago
To be honest, I think I would just let this one go. Does your father, at 84, really need a new car anyway?
- sowbug 3y ago
  Believe me, I'd love to talk with my dad about something else. But if it's not the 1950s, getting a new car, or what my mom is most recently wrong about, he's not interested.
mattlondon 3y ago
I think this is pretty much what they all do already? Seems like most manufacturers offer a "long range" version? Perhaps not 250 Vs 500, but certainly like 150 to 250 sort of order of magnitude Take a look at http://ev-database.uk http://ev-database.uk
- leetcrew 3y ago
  right, businesses love opportunities to create market segmentation, and they seem to already do this to the extent it's reasonable with battery capacity. I think the limiting factor here is that the battery pack already makes up a large fraction of the total mass and volume of the vehicle. once you've designed a chassis and suspension suitable for a 500 kWh battery pack, it doesn't really make sense to offer it with half or less of that capacity. you can't offer it at the discount that people would expect.
- sowbug 3y ago
  I think you're making statements rather than asking questions. Yes, but still not as long range as the longest-range gas cars. Tesla extinguished the "is it a real car?" questions by offering the 2014 P85D, which was briefly the quickest production car on Earth (though it cost $140,000). You don't hear anyone talking about slow EVs the way they did 10 years ago when Nissan Leafs were going 53 mph on highways. If there were an equivalent EV but for range rather than acceleration, the discussion would no longer be about range. Charging time and availability would still be legitimate (but diminishing) issues, as sig points out.
gnicholas 3y ago
I couldn’t convince my parents to get a plug-in hybrid Prius (to replace their old Prius) because it didn’t have a spare tire in the back. They ended up getting a hybrid Camry, which gets much, much worse mileage for their use case. It’s still pretty good in the grand scheme of things, but it was silly that they wouldn’t consider a car without a spare tire considering where they drive and that they have AAA.
- kcplate 3y ago
  On average I have a flat tire probably once every 3 years and if the difference is being able to change a tire with 30 mins of effort and be back to wherever I am going plus slightly decreased MPG vs waiting a couple of hours for a tow truck, being towed to a tire place, waiting a couple of hours for a new tire plus somewhat better MPG. I’d go with the Camry too.
slg 3y ago
>drive 8 hours without a pee break is and always will be aspirational. Which is why I think that once you get to a range of around 300 miles, the most important metric shifts from range to charge rate. None of us should probably be driving for more than 4 hours straight. But we also don't need those breaks to be an hour long. If we can get to the point in which 10-15 minutes of charging gives us 4+ hours of driving, then I think most serious complaints about range anxiety disappear.
- _hypx 3y ago
  Which is what hydrogen cars offer. An EV with very fast refueling. What people are missing is that there is no reason that all cars must be battery powered. It's a weird myopia that is antithetical to Silicon Valley thinking, despite being widespread in SV.
  - slg 3y ago
    Because hydrogen cars are less efficient, more expensive, more dangerous, and require more infrastructure than EVs. The speed of refueling isn’t enough of a justification to pursue hydrogen cars. They only really make sense if the raw materials for batteries become too scarce.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      You are just repeating the marketing spiel of battery car makers. Of course, it would be very convenient for them if the problems of the competition are insurmountable and the upside totally pointless. There’s enormous incentive for them to convince people of that. The basic problem here is that fuel cells EVs literally are EVs. They work in incredibly similar ways. Any sort of fundamental analysis would lead you to the conclusion that if BEVs are possible, then so are FCEVs. Any differences are going to be minor, not substantial. Also, a lot of the criticisms are just pure FUD, like claiming hydrogen is more dangerous than lithium (both are very flammable materials). And finally, battery car makers really want you to think that every single car in the future will be a BEV, with not a single exception. That’s a pretty crazy claim, and people should recognize how ridiculous it sounds.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Exactly, range anxiety is mostly a psychological disorder at this point. People feel anxious. But there's no good rational reason for it. I come from a small country where realistically, you leave the country before your battery runs out pretty much from any point in the country. Despite this, a lot of people who definitely don't leave the country very often feel very anxious about range. It's completely irrational. There's always the weird uncle who somehow has to drive hundreds of miles every day while never stopping for lunch, restroom breaks, etc. that has this imaginary need to do all of that without stopping. It's the Netherlands, if you are wondering. And for those few people that actually live up north there in say Groningen and actually do want to regularly drive all the way down to Maastricht, that would be about 230 miles. And this is about as long as it gets in terms of journey length "inside" (the fastest route is actually via Germany) the country. The point is that you can do that on a single charge with most decent EVs. Of course you'll need a charge to get back. And probably a few other things like a rest room break, stretching your legs, or taking care of whatever it was that caused you to drive that far to begin with. Great opportunity to plug in in while you do all of that. It's called destination charging.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
The extra battery is heavy, you hit diminishing returns quickly, like extra fuel on a plane. I have an EV and just cross some trips that we might want to do outside of our range. The big one is Seattle to anchorage which while possible using RV parks, isn’t very easy ATM.
defrost 3y ago
My father's 87 (88 later this year, he was born in 1935). He still drives hundreds of miles here in Western Australia to maintain several sections on three different walking tracks (eg, two thirty KM sections on the thousand km long Bibbulmun Track [1]). Tell your dad to pull his finger out and just do it. [1] https://www.bibbulmuntrack.org.au/ https://www.bibbulmuntrack.org.au/
incomingpain 3y ago
My dad is exactly the same. Range anxiety!!! so I show him the map of level 3 chargers in north america and ask if he's driving to the arctic circle or something. Obviously not. Now 'his friend' bought a f150 lightning and towed max weight 100km and it used 200km range! So his friend returned the truck right away! The actual thing happening is proving that arguing with anyone is literally pointless. You can never convince anyone of anything. You can never teach anyone anything.

by sowbug 3y ago

revertmean 3y ago

To be honest, I think I would just let this one go. Does your father, at 84, really need a new car anyway?

sowbug 3y ago
Believe me, I'd love to talk with my dad about something else. But if it's not the 1950s, getting a new car, or what my mom is most recently wrong about, he's not interested.

mattlondon 3y ago

I think this is pretty much what they all do already? Seems like most manufacturers offer a "long range" version? Perhaps not 250 Vs 500, but certainly like 150 to 250 sort of order of magnitude Take a look at http://ev-database.uk http://ev-database.uk

leetcrew 3y ago
right, businesses love opportunities to create market segmentation, and they seem to already do this to the extent it's reasonable with battery capacity. I think the limiting factor here is that the battery pack already makes up a large fraction of the total mass and volume of the vehicle. once you've designed a chassis and suspension suitable for a 500 kWh battery pack, it doesn't really make sense to offer it with half or less of that capacity. you can't offer it at the discount that people would expect.
sowbug 3y ago
I think you're making statements rather than asking questions. Yes, but still not as long range as the longest-range gas cars. Tesla extinguished the "is it a real car?" questions by offering the 2014 P85D, which was briefly the quickest production car on Earth (though it cost $140,000). You don't hear anyone talking about slow EVs the way they did 10 years ago when Nissan Leafs were going 53 mph on highways. If there were an equivalent EV but for range rather than acceleration, the discussion would no longer be about range. Charging time and availability would still be legitimate (but diminishing) issues, as sig points out.

gnicholas 3y ago

I couldn’t convince my parents to get a plug-in hybrid Prius (to replace their old Prius) because it didn’t have a spare tire in the back. They ended up getting a hybrid Camry, which gets much, much worse mileage for their use case. It’s still pretty good in the grand scheme of things, but it was silly that they wouldn’t consider a car without a spare tire considering where they drive and that they have AAA.

kcplate 3y ago
On average I have a flat tire probably once every 3 years and if the difference is being able to change a tire with 30 mins of effort and be back to wherever I am going plus slightly decreased MPG vs waiting a couple of hours for a tow truck, being towed to a tire place, waiting a couple of hours for a new tire plus somewhat better MPG. I’d go with the Camry too.

slg 3y ago

>drive 8 hours without a pee break is and always will be aspirational. Which is why I think that once you get to a range of around 300 miles, the most important metric shifts from range to charge rate. None of us should probably be driving for more than 4 hours straight. But we also don't need those breaks to be an hour long. If we can get to the point in which 10-15 minutes of charging gives us 4+ hours of driving, then I think most serious complaints about range anxiety disappear.

_hypx 3y ago
Which is what hydrogen cars offer. An EV with very fast refueling. What people are missing is that there is no reason that all cars must be battery powered. It's a weird myopia that is antithetical to Silicon Valley thinking, despite being widespread in SV.
- slg 3y ago
  Because hydrogen cars are less efficient, more expensive, more dangerous, and require more infrastructure than EVs. The speed of refueling isn’t enough of a justification to pursue hydrogen cars. They only really make sense if the raw materials for batteries become too scarce.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    You are just repeating the marketing spiel of battery car makers. Of course, it would be very convenient for them if the problems of the competition are insurmountable and the upside totally pointless. There’s enormous incentive for them to convince people of that. The basic problem here is that fuel cells EVs literally are EVs. They work in incredibly similar ways. Any sort of fundamental analysis would lead you to the conclusion that if BEVs are possible, then so are FCEVs. Any differences are going to be minor, not substantial. Also, a lot of the criticisms are just pure FUD, like claiming hydrogen is more dangerous than lithium (both are very flammable materials). And finally, battery car makers really want you to think that every single car in the future will be a BEV, with not a single exception. That’s a pretty crazy claim, and people should recognize how ridiculous it sounds.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

Exactly, range anxiety is mostly a psychological disorder at this point. People feel anxious. But there's no good rational reason for it. I come from a small country where realistically, you leave the country before your battery runs out pretty much from any point in the country. Despite this, a lot of people who definitely don't leave the country very often feel very anxious about range. It's completely irrational. There's always the weird uncle who somehow has to drive hundreds of miles every day while never stopping for lunch, restroom breaks, etc. that has this imaginary need to do all of that without stopping. It's the Netherlands, if you are wondering. And for those few people that actually live up north there in say Groningen and actually do want to regularly drive all the way down to Maastricht, that would be about 230 miles. And this is about as long as it gets in terms of journey length "inside" (the fastest route is actually via Germany) the country. The point is that you can do that on a single charge with most decent EVs. Of course you'll need a charge to get back. And probably a few other things like a rest room break, stretching your legs, or taking care of whatever it was that caused you to drive that far to begin with. Great opportunity to plug in in while you do all of that. It's called destination charging.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

The extra battery is heavy, you hit diminishing returns quickly, like extra fuel on a plane. I have an EV and just cross some trips that we might want to do outside of our range. The big one is Seattle to anchorage which while possible using RV parks, isn’t very easy ATM.

defrost 3y ago

My father's 87 (88 later this year, he was born in 1935). He still drives hundreds of miles here in Western Australia to maintain several sections on three different walking tracks (eg, two thirty KM sections on the thousand km long Bibbulmun Track [1]). Tell your dad to pull his finger out and just do it. [1] https://www.bibbulmuntrack.org.au/ https://www.bibbulmuntrack.org.au/

incomingpain 3y ago

My dad is exactly the same. Range anxiety!!! so I show him the map of level 3 chargers in north america and ask if he's driving to the arctic circle or something. Obviously not. Now 'his friend' bought a f150 lightning and towed max weight 100km and it used 200km range! So his friend returned the truck right away! The actual thing happening is proving that arguing with anyone is literally pointless. You can never convince anyone of anything. You can never teach anyone anything.