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The mysterious dodecahedrons of the Roman Empire
- OnlyMortal 3y agoI thought it was a range finding device?
- marricks 3y agoIf they were you’d expect them to be a standard size and they’re not. That’s what I recall from last time this went around at least.
- detaro 3y agohow would that work?
- porkbeer 3y agoCould be, using the holes. That would make the size difference an non issue but then why the ones without holes.
- bombcar 3y agoRe-verify our range to target... one strange dodecahedron thing only.
- Thrymr 3y agoThere are even older known D20 dice, e.g. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551072 https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551072
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- swayvil 3y agoThat dodecahedron featured in the first pic is swank af. Hats off to the ancients. I've crafted a few in various media. Getting it right is tricky. Really makes you appreciate 3d printing.
- jameshart 3y agoIf they’re tricky to produce well, that suggests another possibility - maybe they were a journeyman piece for bronze crafters. Does it require combining a number of different techniques to produce? Would deficiencies in particular techniques manifest in obvious flaws in the finished artifact? Or maybe they’re more like fizzbuzz for gallo-Roman bronze artificers. You show up at an interview and they ask you to knock out one of these to prove you’re not an idiot.
- arbitrage 3y ago> maybe they were a journeyman piece for bronze crafters If this were the case, shouldn't there be makers' marks on them? Something to identify them as being the work of a journeyman level artisan hoping to use it to prove their worth? Otherwise, one could fraudulently present someone else's work as there own, and undermine the system. I feel that if they were really part of a 'graduation portfolio' for crafters, it would be much more obvious. Something like an inscription that says "crafted by Albertus in the 14th year of the Emperor Foo". I like your fizz-buzz theory. If the object is a one-and-done throw away, then you might not bother to put your mark on it.
- chiph 3y agoMy guess has been that they are an item a journeyman blacksmith had to create to be promoted to master. From the photos I've seen, they're similar but not identical. So they likely aren't being made as a regular production item like nails or hinges would be.
- Maursault 3y ago> My guess has been that they are an item a journeyman blacksmith had to create to be promoted to master. Seems pretty specific to span two centuries of known construction. Why would they be saved and not recycled? Nearly every medieval village had a blacksmith, with larger population centers supporting more, within the whole of medieval Europe thousands of blacksmiths at any one time, so why have only 116 of these turned up when there should be hundreds of thousands of them? I think it's very interesting their construction appears to cease just in time for Christianity to take over Europe in the late 4th century. Previously, Rome had 12 principal deities.
- akiselev 3y agoThe article fails to mention a major hypothesis that immediately came to mind when I saw the object. Wikipedia agrees [1]: > It has also been suggested that they might have been an object to test the skill of a metalsmith, perhaps as part of a portfolio to demonstrate their capabilities to customers or as a way to qualify for a certain status in a collegium (guild). This speculation is based on the historic cost of bronze and the level of skill necessary to cast such an object. It’s complexity screams “apprentice’s graduating casting project” which would also explain why some were found with coin hoards - they’re sentimental objects kept by successful blacksmiths; the one thing they’d keep to represent an entire career. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron
- Altho 3y agoI think it's an interesting hypothesis; it's definitely a complex piece. However there are some things like the different size holes and the little knobs that I don't see adding complexity to the dodecahedron and seem to be more functional to me. It seems like it could be rotated to put the right size hole whereve it needs to be and the knobs are placed so it can stand no matter what hole is chosen
- akiselev 3y agoThat's actually what gave me the idea in the first place: I think the knobs resemble practice sprues [1] or jig holding points. The holes would likely have been cut using premade templates so the builders just used a different side pattern on each side, perhaps to demonstrate centering. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprue_(manufacturing)#Injection_molding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprue_(manufacturing)#Injectio...
- nologic01 3y agoWhy the specific Gallo-Roman geographic distribution? Presumably blacksmiths existed and needed "visiting cards" across the Roman Empire? As an impromptu digital armchair archeologist I'd say this very specific geographic dispersion suggests cultural / religious significance. In any case it weighs against a purely utilitarian role (that would easily diffuse across the empire). Wax residue was found inside "one or two". Possibly used in a ceremony using candles. The protrusions might have been yarn anchors, not to knit gloves, but to form elaborate ritualistic symbols. I.e. imagine the bare metal covered with a colorful pattern that would be wound and unwound to match the occasion.
- detrites 3y agoOne of the suggestions was as a mounting point for metal or wooden poles. This suggested, to me at least use as a joint for scaffolding. The holes of differing sizes accommodating pole diameters suited to each purpose for a given scaffold. On the outside the protrusions could have been used for tying ropes that secure the joint to the pole. Could have been very strong if also threaded inside the dodecahedrons as well. All reusable and modular. Alright, may be a total fantasy though. The thing that nullifies this as an idea for me is it would be expected therefore to find absolutely thousands of them. I don't know enough about it, but I got the impression it's much less than that, and it'd seem brass would last better.
- Jarmsy 3y agoRegular dodecahedra don't tile space, so these wouldn't make much sense as scaffold nodes. For regular space frames with identical nodes, truncated octahedra are more useful.
- arbitrage 3y agoUtterly straight-forward and to-the-point insight. I find your argument really compelling.
- swayvil 3y agoAside from cubes, what regular polyhedra can you tile space with? --nvrmnd. Apparently there's only 1. Cube
- lstodd 3y agoI find rhombic dodecahedra fascinating. Even made a couple dozen from cardboard to play with.
- detrites 3y agoNow that makes a lot of sense. Though, makes me wonder - what about when constructing domes?
- arbitrage 3y ago
- malloci 3y agoI always find it interesting that objects like these must have had to have a purpose. Why couldn’t it have been a piece of art simply for decoration?
- dragontamer 3y agoI can only imagine some archeologist looking at the Filipino giant spoon/fork hanging on our kitchen walls and wondering what it would be used for. It's not like anyone actually writes down house decoration theory. You just sorta pick up on it based on visiting a bunch of people's homes in a community.
- PraetorianGourd 3y agoBut it does have cultural significance. Filipino dishes are served with a fork and a spoon, not with a knife as is common in the west, or chopsticks as in some other Asian cultures. It is a very culturally specific thing, and something that hopefully is written somewhere. If not, maybe this little conversation will do the trick and be referenced ages from now
- bombcar 3y agoIf they were art you’d expect them to be more different, and not as localized.
- brazzy 3y agoBecause if you do art, you want to make something unique. Artists don't create exact replicas of the same object so often that a hundred of them are found over 1000 years later (which implies that there were probably many thousands of these).
- djur 3y agoThis would suggest that the "cool S" that showed up in notebooks, on walls, etc. throughout my youth was a religious/ritual symbol. Same with stuffed squirrels and singing bass and "Bless This Mess" crochets and barn stars...
- someperson 3y agoHere's a video of the knitting theory mentioned in the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76AvV601yJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76AvV601yJ0
- longbrass 3y agodXX!
- someweirdperson 3y agoNo, dXII.
- layer8 3y agoThe second photo features a dXX.
- georgeoliver 3y agoThis reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carved_stone_balls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carved_stone_balls from the Neolithic era, perhaps these bronze pieces are a technical evolution of those objects?
- Hammerhead12321 3y agoIt’s a chandelier/candle holder or heating device, is it not? Wax was even found on one. The different size holes accommodate different candle sizes. They were made with a copper alloy and thus conduct heat efficiently. That also aligns with the reasoning used to justify the gloves theory (i.e. they were primarily found in colder climates).
- arp242 3y agoThis is interesting, but at least one of them seems to have no holes at all: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2018_Rheinisches_Landesmuseum_Bonn,_Dodekaeder_%26_Ikosaeder.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2018_Rheinisches_Lan... Also not convinced it will be all that stable as a candle holder.
- INTPenis 3y agoMaybe it wasn't finished? And the ones out of stone could be a poor persons attempt, because stone also retains heat. I actually like any theory related to heat because that's what the map indicates. Any other theory is related to things and actions that were common throughout the empire.
- arp242 3y agoMaybe. I tried to find a catalogue of dodecahedrons, but I couldn't really find any in a few minutes of searching, so I'm not sure if all except one doesn't have any holes, or if there are more of them. Many of the images seem to be of the same few objects. As for heat: how did people heat their homes? Rich people had their fancy underfloor heating, but what did poor and middle-class people use? In Celtic and medieval times they would typically use a hearth (i.e. fire) – it seems to me a candle just doesn't give enough heat, and you're going to need a hearth anyway for cooking. I would imagine that's also what they used during Roman times since that's what's used both before and after the Roman era.
- kzrdude 3y agoThe one without holes looks like an icosahedron (20 sides)
- jenadine 3y agoLooks like a massage device
- dang 3y agoRelated: No one is certain what Roman bronze dodecahedrons were used for (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29717215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29717215 - Dec 2021 (207 comments) What were these Roman objects used for? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25237271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25237271 - Nov 2020 (37 comments) The Mysterious Bronze Objects That Have Baffled Archaeologists for Centuries - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21439351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21439351 - Nov 2019 (7 comments)
- kzrdude 3y agoAstrology makes sense to me. 12 sides for 12 months and the zodiac. A platonic solid is attractive to use for something that models the universe (star and planet alignment).
- haunter 3y agoThey are Pieces of Eden from Assassin’s Creed we just don’t know how to activate them yet.
- jhoechtl 3y agoThey were used to measure the amount of pasta noodles depending on the amount of expected guests. Way more elegant than what we have from ikea today. Another theory of mine is a candle holder which adapts to stump size.
- Taniwha 3y agoExcept that pasta came from China 1000 years later ....
- fsckboy 3y agoexcept that there seems to be no truth to the Marco Polo story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History
- lordwarnut 3y agoInteresting, I was thinking perhaps it was to hold soft boiled eggs such that it was convenient to dip strips of buttered toast into the yolk.
- jhoechtl 3y agoI like that theory too. Nice kitchen aids they had back then
- elo_ 3y ago[dead]
- dejerpha 3y agoActually, that source claims it’s a string puzzle.
- moffkalast 3y agoIt says in the article that it's a string toy for finding a Hamiltonian cycle?
- robbiep 3y agoYour friends blog article doesn’t appear to even mention a calendar?
- bootloop 3y agoThere is a part 3 and 4: https://tinkerings.org/2020/12/25/roman-dodecahedrons-part-iii/ https://tinkerings.org/2020/12/25/roman-dodecahedrons-part-i...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- aleph_minus_one 3y agoMy spontanous thought about the dodecahedrons' purpose: Roman fidget spinner (i.e. an object to play around with your hands to keep you more calm)
- moffkalast 3y agoOh but the function is well known: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-184 https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-184
- sb057 3y agoMy immediate assumption is that they're probably a sort of non-wearable jewelry in the same vein as globus crucigers and fabergé eggs.
- ftxbro 3y ago> globus crucigers that is a holy hand grenade
- petarb 3y agoThe 20 sided one was forsure for their ancient version of Dungeons and Dragons
- fwlr 3y agoI think the “proof of metalsmith skill” theory is most likely. Perhaps slightly higher than simply journeyman/apprentice finishing project; since the particular difficulties lie more in geometry than metalworking, this might be a kind of “Geometer’s Guild” entrance exam piece. It reminds me a little of the more modern “Turner’s Cube”, a challenge of machining skill given to apprentice turners not too long ago (https://makezine.com/article/digital-fabrication/3d-printing-workshop/the-turners-cube-classic-machinists/ https://makezine.com/article/digital-fabrication/3d-printing...). The process to make one of these dodecahedrons involves geometrically constructing a pentagon, forming it into a mold, casting from that mold 12 times, centre-finding either the mold or each pentagon, forming a centered circular hole on each given center, joining the 12 pentagons at precise angles, casting 20 spheres, and joining one sphere to each vertex. The ancient Greek mathematicians were fascinated with compass-and-straightedge constructions (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straightedge_and_compass_construction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straightedge_and_compass_con...), and posed (and sometimes solved) many such constructions, particularly constructions of regular polygons (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructible_polygon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructible_polygon). Constructing a right angle from a line is almost the most basic operation, and repeating that two more times constructs a square, so squares are trivial to construct (4 sides, trivial). The process for an equilateral triangle is not quite trivial, but it is simple (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral_triangle) - simple enough that its proof is given at the beginning of the first book of Euclid’s Elements (3 sides, simple). Doubling the sides of a given polygon is also simple, so from a triangle you can get a hexagon (6 sides, trivial), and from a square you can get an octagon (8 sides, trivial). That’s 3, 4, 6, 8 - what about 5 and 7? For constructing the heptagon of 7 sides, the Greeks considered this problem to be “obstinate”; I believe Gauss was the first to prove it is actually impossible. For 5, the regular pentagon, constructions using just a straightedge and compass were given by Euclid in Elements and by Ptolemy half a millennia layer, but they are certainly not simple (here is an animation of one such method https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry//construct-pentagon.html https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry//construct-pentagon.html). The full list is something like 3: simple 4: trivial 5: hard 6: trivial, just double a triangle 7: obstinate, later shown impossible 8: trivial, just double a square 9: obstinate, later shown possible but extremely hard 10: trivial, just double a pentagon 11: obstinate, later proven impossible 12: trivial, just double a hexagon So among the first several regular polygons, the pentagon is by far the hardest to construct that wasn’t obstinate/impossible at the time. This makes it the perfect shape to test a geometer’s skill; they would have had to understand the hardest shape in the first book of Euclid’s Elements. (Centre-finding on a pentagon is also somewhat complicated relative to the other shapes, though not by as much as construction: https://youtu.be/RxYfdNrt4Sw https://youtu.be/RxYfdNrt4Sw) Next we move to the dodecahedron. There are only five Platonic solids, believed at the time to have special properties such as being the building blocks of all matter. Three of these are built from triangles. Of the other two, one is the cube built from squares, and the other is the dodecahedron built from pentagons. The cube is fairly trivial and triangles can build multiple Platonic solids, but the dodecahedron feels more unique: it can only be built from pentagons, pentagons only build it, and pentagons are the hardest shape that build a Platonic solid. I suspect this synchronicity would have inspired exactly the kind of awe that a master craftsman/geometer would have liked to command. Why not stop at the dodecahedron? Making and attaching the spheres to each vertex demands another kind of metalsmithing skill, that of forming spheres, which is largely unrelated to all the constructing of polygons done before. It also makes the object testable by non-geometers: place it on any flat-ish surface (it doesn’t need to be perfectly flat as long as you always have the base spheres in contact with the same five points) and the sun passing through the two differently sized holes will form a specific shape, a lens (sort of the like the shape of an eye, the shape made when two circles intersect a bit). Each lens would be a different size but the same shape, you could visually confirm they were all the same, and more rigorously test the accuracy with just a compass. Essentially, this object would let you prove to a smart non-geometer (such as a property owner looking to hire an architect to oversee building a house, or a factory owner looking to prove you could manufacture precise and repeatable objects…) that you had excellent geometry skills, and likely that you had read and mastered at least several parts of Euclid’s Elements (the first major “textbook”, widely considered one of the most important and influential books ever, by far the most logically rigorous [important mindset for engineers…] text around and not surpassed in that regard until the 15th century or so, etc…). If it was made of metal, it also demonstrated important metalworking skills like accurate mold forming, repeatable casting from molds, and joining at precise angles - since errors in metalsmithing at almost any stage would have deformed the resulting verifiable lens shape sunlight makes when passing through it. If it was made of stone, it would demonstrate the same geometry skill and similar skill in stone-working; if it was made of wood, it probably wouldn’t survive to be found as a historical artifact. On top of all of that, it lies at the confluence of solutions to several hard problems in contemporary geometry at the time and it happened to have the same number of sides as there were Gods in the pantheon and it invoked the (religiously-imbued) Sun in verifying its accuracy, all things which would have carried cultural importance and increased the standing and respect of geometers in society. The calendar theories are certainly interesting as well, but if it was used for such utilitarian and important purposes, there should be correspondingly more utilitarian examples of this object, since there were so many farmers. The biggest point against my theory is that if it were true, it absolutely demands that these objects would bear a maker’s mark, and they don’t seem to have those. I don’t know how to resolve this fatal objection; I could say it was considered heretical to mark (a representation of) a Platonic solid with a mere human’s name, but this seems a meager excuse.
- f_allwein 3y agoGerman Wikipedia argues for the gloves theory as well, similar to today’s Strickliesel devices: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Römisches_Dodekaeder https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Römisches_Dodekaeder and https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strickliesel https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strickliesel
- DoctorOetker 3y ago"A device for detecting counterfeit coins." This one sounds most plausible to me, given some were discovered with coin hoards. In the past coins used to have simple round edges. People would scrape (with say a knife or other hard tool) metal from coins slightly reducing their diameter imperceptibly. This tool could be used both by scrapers and verifiers. After a daytime trading job a scraper might sort his coins by type, and do the pass vs no-pass test. Scraping ones that were slightly larger than average, but not those already scraped by others. A verifier that doesn't scrape, but wants to avoid incurring loss due to scrapers might use the tool during trading and refuse coins that fall through, or he might more discreetly sort the revenue after work, and sort into coins to keep, and coins to return as change. I don't know if Isaac Newton was the first to introduce the slotted edges to deter scraping, but he did locally introduce it when he was appointed head of the Royal Mint.
- l1n 3y agoElsewhere: https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2022/08/04/fiber-arts-mysterious-dodecahedrons-and-waiting-on-eureka/ https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2022/08/04/fiber-arts-myster... disagrees on the glove hypothesis
- firstlink 3y agoI thought the bit where knitting hadn't been invented yet was pretty illuminating on the dodecahedron hypothesis.
- Gordonjcp 3y agoKnitting predates the Roman empire by a comfortable margin.
- George83728 3y agoDo you have any evidence for that? Note that knitting is a specific thing, we're not talking about all woven textiles generally.
- Gordonjcp 3y agoThe Romans were buying knitted and spun textiles from the north-west of Scotland before they even set foot in the south of England. It's pretty well-documented.
- George83728 3y agoWhere is that documented?
- misnome 3y agoThe link, and wikipedia, disagree with you.
- marcus_holmes 3y agoKnitting maybe not, but Nalbinding definitely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding#
- bombcar 3y agoI could have sworn that the last time this came up there was a blog where someone had taken measurements from hundreds of them and shown similarities and deduced a use. But darned if I can find it.
- themodelplumber 3y agoSame. It was a pretty interesting read. Was it the calendar one?
- bombcar 3y agoThat seems familiar. Yep! https://www.romandodecahedron.com/calendar https://www.romandodecahedron.com/calendar
- irrational 3y ago“In that year, over 250 bishops came together at Nicaea to discuss the increasing problems concerning the date of Eastern. At this meting” Should those be “Easter” and “meeting”? I’m not sure if these are misspellings or spellings I’m not familiar with.
- bombcar 3y agoLooks like typos to me.
- Archelaos 3y agoThe whole statement in the article is utter nonsense: "In that year, over 250 bishops came together at Nicaea to discuss the increasing problems concerning the date of Eastern. At this meting, they decided that from that point on, March 21 would be the vernal equinoctial point, which would mean that the calendar would have the same pace as the solar year. The last dodecahedrons descend from the fourth century AD." That in 325 AD the vernal equinox fell on 21 March in the Julian Calendar was just a matter of fact. No one except of a few experts cared for more than a thousand years, that the calendar date of the vernal equinox gradually changed, amounting to 1 day aprox. every 128 years. The "classical" way to "measure" the date of the equinox is by using a so-called gnomon, a vertical stick. At the date of the spring or autumn equinox, the tip of its shadow over the day results in a straight line. Here is an illustration and a longer explanation: https://earthsky.org/human-world/equinox-shadows-trace-a-straight-line/ https://earthsky.org/human-world/equinox-shadows-trace-a-str...