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It is difficult to avoid flamewars when the original post itself contains flaimbait like: Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a

It is difficult to avoid flamewars when the original post itself contains flaimbait like: Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. The major players in desktop Linux have decided it's time to move on from Xorg, and if you want to go against the tide you're on your own. Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair.

mort96 3y ago
I don't think people understand that Xorg is truly dead. Wayland is essentially X12. Everyone who used to work on X now works in Wayland. You should not have an expectation that Xorg will keep working. You should not have an expectation that bugs will be fixed. You should not have an expectation that new hardware will work well with Xorg. If you want to go against the tide, you truly are on your own. You should expect less and less things to work over time as Xorg's code rots, X backends for GUI frameworks rot, and new hardware and drivers expose X bugs which won't be fixed. If this doesn't scream "it's time to move away", I don't really know what does. Nobody can force anyone to move of course. But the writing truly is on the wall.
- alanfranz 3y ago
  > I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Java apps not getting the hidpi settings. That’s what drives me away from Wayland, and all of those happened to me. I don’t think anybody is against Wayland “just because”. When it matures and app support is better, we’ll switch.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.
    - alanfranz 3y ago
      I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.
  - mort96 3y ago
    I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.
    - okasaki 3y ago
      The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
      - ezst 3y ago
        Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
        okasaki 3y ago
        Yeah, Xorg is better. It's faster, more stable, uses less power, and has more features, and more environments. 14 years later there's still no rational reason to run Wayland, and I doubt there ever will be.
        ezst 3y ago
        I mean, it's funny that you say so, because with the exception of "more environments", I've observed the exact opposite :) I'm a simple user with simple needs, though apparently that's already pushing the limits of what Xorg can deliver: I have a high-DPI laptop scaled 140%, and a secondary high-res/average-DPI display at 100%. Mixing scaling factors has never worked well under Xorg (rendering glitches with ghost lines, applications like drop down terminals not knowing the dimensions of their viewport when opened on one screen and then or the other). And I'm not even getting into the better handling of discrete GPUs or the much smoother scrolling/animations that give it a better polish. Xorg totally made sense in the context in which it was invented (in the long forgotten era of server-side rendering), but with applications rendering their own widgets and passing pixmaps to the compositor, Wayland is mostly about cutting the middleman and breaking-off with the obsolete/unmaintained/insecure bits. If you grab a distro with the latest gnome/kde, you should be at a point where Wayland really is only upsides.
pattyj 3y ago
> Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair. He also said[1]: > We don't have the time And then he said[2]: > If you want to change that, better volunteer yourself :) Rather, I think he's saying the loud part out loud. OSS can have an opinion, and you're free to modify it to suit your own opinion. [1] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 [2] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  Disingenuous. If someone turns up willing to volunteer, there will be some other excuse. They do not want volunteer effort to do something they don't want done. Even fully baked patches will turn out to require "incompatible architectural changes".
  - bitwize 3y ago
    In social justice (a key component of how open source projects operate today) we have this concept of "doing the work", which is as much about humbling and decentering yourself and recognizing that there is a community of others involved whom your efforts must support, as it is about putting in the actual effort. Eric S. Raymond likes to contribute to open source projects in the form of fully realized, thoroughly architected megapatches that totally upend all the assumptions about how a system/subsystem works and behaves, along with a long lecture about why his patch should be accepted which boils down to "I'm ESR, I know how this bit should be designed much better than you, so there". That is the exact opposite of doing the work. Doing the work involves empathy and respect for the needs and experiences of others. If you want Asahi Linux to support Xorg, you have three choices: * Accept things as is. * Fork the project. * "Do the work". Convince the Asahi maintainers, in terms they are likely to appreciate, why Xorg inclusion is a good idea and who will be assuming the maintenance burden with little to no effort on their part. Then try to merge your patches.
kovac 3y ago
That's a horrible way to communicate something to your users, FOSS or not. A simple email in a mailing list that says they are dropping support for Xorg would have been sufficient.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
That's not flamebait, it's a statement of fact.

mort96 3y ago

I don't think people understand that Xorg is truly dead. Wayland is essentially X12. Everyone who used to work on X now works in Wayland. You should not have an expectation that Xorg will keep working. You should not have an expectation that bugs will be fixed. You should not have an expectation that new hardware will work well with Xorg. If you want to go against the tide, you truly are on your own. You should expect less and less things to work over time as Xorg's code rots, X backends for GUI frameworks rot, and new hardware and drivers expose X bugs which won't be fixed. If this doesn't scream "it's time to move away", I don't really know what does. Nobody can force anyone to move of course. But the writing truly is on the wall.

alanfranz 3y ago
> I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Java apps not getting the hidpi settings. That’s what drives me away from Wayland, and all of those happened to me. I don’t think anybody is against Wayland “just because”. When it matures and app support is better, we’ll switch.
- kaba0 3y ago
  Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.
  - alanfranz 3y ago
    I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.
- mort96 3y ago
  I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.
  - okasaki 3y ago
    The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
    - ezst 3y ago
      Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
      - okasaki 3y ago
        Yeah, Xorg is better. It's faster, more stable, uses less power, and has more features, and more environments. 14 years later there's still no rational reason to run Wayland, and I doubt there ever will be.
        ezst 3y ago
        I mean, it's funny that you say so, because with the exception of "more environments", I've observed the exact opposite :) I'm a simple user with simple needs, though apparently that's already pushing the limits of what Xorg can deliver: I have a high-DPI laptop scaled 140%, and a secondary high-res/average-DPI display at 100%. Mixing scaling factors has never worked well under Xorg (rendering glitches with ghost lines, applications like drop down terminals not knowing the dimensions of their viewport when opened on one screen and then or the other). And I'm not even getting into the better handling of discrete GPUs or the much smoother scrolling/animations that give it a better polish. Xorg totally made sense in the context in which it was invented (in the long forgotten era of server-side rendering), but with applications rendering their own widgets and passing pixmaps to the compositor, Wayland is mostly about cutting the middleman and breaking-off with the obsolete/unmaintained/insecure bits. If you grab a distro with the latest gnome/kde, you should be at a point where Wayland really is only upsides.

pattyj 3y ago

> Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair. He also said[1]: > We don't have the time And then he said[2]: > If you want to change that, better volunteer yourself :) Rather, I think he's saying the loud part out loud. OSS can have an opinion, and you're free to modify it to suit your own opinion. [1] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 [2] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348

Brian_K_White 3y ago
Disingenuous. If someone turns up willing to volunteer, there will be some other excuse. They do not want volunteer effort to do something they don't want done. Even fully baked patches will turn out to require "incompatible architectural changes".
- bitwize 3y ago
  In social justice (a key component of how open source projects operate today) we have this concept of "doing the work", which is as much about humbling and decentering yourself and recognizing that there is a community of others involved whom your efforts must support, as it is about putting in the actual effort. Eric S. Raymond likes to contribute to open source projects in the form of fully realized, thoroughly architected megapatches that totally upend all the assumptions about how a system/subsystem works and behaves, along with a long lecture about why his patch should be accepted which boils down to "I'm ESR, I know how this bit should be designed much better than you, so there". That is the exact opposite of doing the work. Doing the work involves empathy and respect for the needs and experiences of others. If you want Asahi Linux to support Xorg, you have three choices: * Accept things as is. * Fork the project. * "Do the work". Convince the Asahi maintainers, in terms they are likely to appreciate, why Xorg inclusion is a good idea and who will be assuming the maintenance burden with little to no effort on their part. Then try to merge your patches.

kovac 3y ago

That's a horrible way to communicate something to your users, FOSS or not. A simple email in a mailing list that says they are dropping support for Xorg would have been sufficient.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

That's not flamebait, it's a statement of fact.