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The discussion of phoronix often goes towards flamewar. I hope the discussion here is more civil :) I can understand they want to test their GPU drivers only a

by mpol 3y ago

The discussion of phoronix often goes towards flamewar. I hope the discussion here is more civil :) I can understand they want to test their GPU drivers only against the main Wayland compositors. Xorg is quite another beast to support. For all I know, it might come into the context when most bugs have been ironed out in the GPU drivers. I do hope people do not take it as general advice. Not all desktop environments have a Wayland compositor, some are quite buggy and many apps don't work yet with Wayland. I am using Xfce and for the next year at least I will be on Xorg. I do hope Wayland gets better, but it has been an undertaking of many years already. The rest of the process won't be much faster I suspect.

ykonstant 3y ago
It is difficult to avoid flamewars when the original post itself contains flaimbait like: Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. The major players in desktop Linux have decided it's time to move on from Xorg, and if you want to go against the tide you're on your own. Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair.
- mort96 3y ago
  I don't think people understand that Xorg is truly dead. Wayland is essentially X12. Everyone who used to work on X now works in Wayland. You should not have an expectation that Xorg will keep working. You should not have an expectation that bugs will be fixed. You should not have an expectation that new hardware will work well with Xorg. If you want to go against the tide, you truly are on your own. You should expect less and less things to work over time as Xorg's code rots, X backends for GUI frameworks rot, and new hardware and drivers expose X bugs which won't be fixed. If this doesn't scream "it's time to move away", I don't really know what does. Nobody can force anyone to move of course. But the writing truly is on the wall.
  - alanfranz 3y ago
    > I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Java apps not getting the hidpi settings. That’s what drives me away from Wayland, and all of those happened to me. I don’t think anybody is against Wayland “just because”. When it matures and app support is better, we’ll switch.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.
      - alanfranz 3y ago
        I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.
    - mort96 3y ago
      I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.
      - okasaki 3y ago
        The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
        ezst 3y ago
        Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
- pattyj 3y ago
  > Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair. He also said[1]: > We don't have the time And then he said[2]: > If you want to change that, better volunteer yourself :) Rather, I think he's saying the loud part out loud. OSS can have an opinion, and you're free to modify it to suit your own opinion. [1] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 [2] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348
  - Brian_K_White 3y ago
    Disingenuous. If someone turns up willing to volunteer, there will be some other excuse. They do not want volunteer effort to do something they don't want done. Even fully baked patches will turn out to require "incompatible architectural changes".
    - bitwize 3y ago
      In social justice (a key component of how open source projects operate today) we have this concept of "doing the work", which is as much about humbling and decentering yourself and recognizing that there is a community of others involved whom your efforts must support, as it is about putting in the actual effort. Eric S. Raymond likes to contribute to open source projects in the form of fully realized, thoroughly architected megapatches that totally upend all the assumptions about how a system/subsystem works and behaves, along with a long lecture about why his patch should be accepted which boils down to "I'm ESR, I know how this bit should be designed much better than you, so there". That is the exact opposite of doing the work. Doing the work involves empathy and respect for the needs and experiences of others. If you want Asahi Linux to support Xorg, you have three choices: * Accept things as is. * Fork the project. * "Do the work". Convince the Asahi maintainers, in terms they are likely to appreciate, why Xorg inclusion is a good idea and who will be assuming the maintenance burden with little to no effort on their part. Then try to merge your patches.
- kovac 3y ago
  That's a horrible way to communicate something to your users, FOSS or not. A simple email in a mailing list that says they are dropping support for Xorg would have been sufficient.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  That's not flamebait, it's a statement of fact.

by mpol 3y ago

ykonstant 3y ago

It is difficult to avoid flamewars when the original post itself contains flaimbait like: Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. The major players in desktop Linux have decided it's time to move on from Xorg, and if you want to go against the tide you're on your own. Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair.

mort96 3y ago
I don't think people understand that Xorg is truly dead. Wayland is essentially X12. Everyone who used to work on X now works in Wayland. You should not have an expectation that Xorg will keep working. You should not have an expectation that bugs will be fixed. You should not have an expectation that new hardware will work well with Xorg. If you want to go against the tide, you truly are on your own. You should expect less and less things to work over time as Xorg's code rots, X backends for GUI frameworks rot, and new hardware and drivers expose X bugs which won't be fixed. If this doesn't scream "it's time to move away", I don't really know what does. Nobody can force anyone to move of course. But the writing truly is on the wall.
- alanfranz 3y ago
  > I don't really know what does. My desktop not working, or apps being blurred, or slower, or my mouse cursor stuttering, or screen sharing not working, or Java apps not getting the hidpi settings. That’s what drives me away from Wayland, and all of those happened to me. I don’t think anybody is against Wayland “just because”. When it matures and app support is better, we’ll switch.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Apps being blurred are old x apps running in xwayland compat mode, they are not slower at all (full-screen games can circumvent the compositor for a long time now), and the rest are not typical at all.
    - alanfranz 3y ago
      I don’t care about what’s typical, I care about my own workflow. What is the “typical” linux desktop workflow, btw? It’s probably an OS used by a bunch of geeks, everybody’s got his own quirks.
  - mort96 3y ago
    I understand that it might not work for you. That's unfortunate. But you shouldn't expect Xorg to keep working for you either. The time where Xorg is a well-maintained project is past us. That's the point.
    - okasaki 3y ago
      The only thing that matters is what works better, and that's Xorg.
      - ezst 3y ago
        Is it, though? Wayland has solved a bunch of problems that I had become used to under Xorg to the point of not noticing anymore, and even though I bumped into new issues on Wayland at first (and tbh there are still few open out there), going back to Xorg nowadays feels like going backwards.
pattyj 3y ago
> Not to mention that talking about 'the major players in desktop Linux' is completely against what the OS ethos was supposed to be about; he said the quiet part out loud, and people strike back; it is only fair. He also said[1]: > We don't have the time And then he said[2]: > If you want to change that, better volunteer yourself :) Rather, I think he's saying the loud part out loud. OSS can have an opinion, and you're free to modify it to suit your own opinion. [1] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092 [2] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354734990416348
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  Disingenuous. If someone turns up willing to volunteer, there will be some other excuse. They do not want volunteer effort to do something they don't want done. Even fully baked patches will turn out to require "incompatible architectural changes".
  - bitwize 3y ago
    In social justice (a key component of how open source projects operate today) we have this concept of "doing the work", which is as much about humbling and decentering yourself and recognizing that there is a community of others involved whom your efforts must support, as it is about putting in the actual effort. Eric S. Raymond likes to contribute to open source projects in the form of fully realized, thoroughly architected megapatches that totally upend all the assumptions about how a system/subsystem works and behaves, along with a long lecture about why his patch should be accepted which boils down to "I'm ESR, I know how this bit should be designed much better than you, so there". That is the exact opposite of doing the work. Doing the work involves empathy and respect for the needs and experiences of others. If you want Asahi Linux to support Xorg, you have three choices: * Accept things as is. * Fork the project. * "Do the work". Convince the Asahi maintainers, in terms they are likely to appreciate, why Xorg inclusion is a good idea and who will be assuming the maintenance burden with little to no effort on their part. Then try to merge your patches.
kovac 3y ago
That's a horrible way to communicate something to your users, FOSS or not. A simple email in a mailing list that says they are dropping support for Xorg would have been sufficient.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
That's not flamebait, it's a statement of fact.