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My wife uses TikTok sometimes. Her feed is mostly toddler related (we have a two year old), and is typically really light and happy. If she scrolls for more tha

My wife uses TikTok sometimes. Her feed is mostly toddler related (we have a two year old), and is typically really light and happy. If she scrolls for more than about 10 minutes tho she’ll get a video about a kid dying or being abused, and I find her crying and upset. I don’t know if it’s intentional or not - it’s possibly not - but I know it makes her more sad than happy.

parker_mountain 3y ago
It's not intentional in the sense that they're trying to do that to her, but their algorithm likely determined that showing a video in that cohort leads to increased use of their app.
- TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
  No no no. You're confused. There is no algorithm acting independently. The responsibile agent(s) is(are) a person(people).
  - parker_mountain 3y ago
    No no no. You're confused. I didn't absolve the creator of guilt, I just said that it's unlikely they're intentionally trying to make her sad. They're just trying to increase engagement - at any cost.
    - xapata 3y ago
      Why? What motivates ByteDance?
      - spondylosaurus 3y ago
        Profit, presumably? Same as any other company. Engagement = profit has been the formula for some time now.
        xapata 3y ago
        There's some speculation that ByteDance is motivated by political goals as well as, or more than, profit.
  - placatedmayhem 3y ago
    Exactly. These outcomes are the results of the algorithms and their tuning, whether intentional or not. Humans are responsible for it and can tune it differently, to a different result. However, these new tunings may reduce engagement or other profit drivers, which a for-profit company will obviously not want to do.
- neilv 3y ago
  > It's not intentional in the sense that they're trying to do that to her, Do you know this for certain?
  - parker_mountain 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure "tiktok is specifically trying to make people sad" and "tiktok does not really care if they hurt people as long as they increase engagement" are two separate concepts.
    - neilv 3y ago
      Yes, and reportedly neither is a completely resolved question.
    - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
      Is the former out of the question?
  - erehweb 3y ago
    What would TikTok's motivation be to make her sad?
    - fear_and_coffee 3y ago
      [dead]
    - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
      The USA's FBI currently claims: The counterintelligence and economic espionage efforts emanating from the government of China and the Chinese Communist Party are a grave threat to the economic well-being and democratic values of the United States. Confronting this threat is the FBI’s top counterintelligence priority. To be clear, the adversary is not the Chinese people or people of Chinese descent or heritage. The threat comes from the programs and policies pursued by an authoritarian government. The Chinese government is employing tactics that seek to influence lawmakers and public opinion to achieve policies that are more favorable to China. At the same time, the Chinese government is seeking to become the world’s greatest superpower through predatory lending and business practices, systematic theft of intellectual property, and brazen cyber intrusions. China’s efforts target businesses, academic institutions, researchers, lawmakers, and the general public and will require a whole-of-society response. The government and the private sector must commit to working together to better understand and counter the threat. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-china-threat https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin... ByteDance's motives should, by now, be clear.
- andrewjl 3y ago
  > algorithm likely determined that showing a video in that cohort leads to increased use of their app Development, selection, tuning, and ultimately deployment of that algorithm were all intentional actions.
TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
And you... permit this to continue? Intentionally?
- suddenclarity 3y ago
  Permit? Your wife? It's not a kid you can revoke internet access from.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    No, that would be unskilful. I protect my SO, with whom I cohabitate, by sharing my knowledge and experience with. By leading. If my SO starts exhibiting behaviour indicative of new psychological / physical pathology, we deal with it, together. We, I, don't do nothing. That's what's commonly referred to as enabling.
    - jjj123 3y ago
      Where did the OP say they’ve done nothing? Isn’t it entirely possible they’ve said how they feel about it, and their partner decided not to listen to them for whatever reason? I had a partner who smoked and continually encouraged them to quit. It took years. Pathological behaviors are hard to break.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
        OP's inaction is implicit, elsewise they would have attempted to explain what efforts have been attempted to resolve the issue. As is the generally accepted method of writing comments around here. Absence of further explanation is invitation of discuss. So here we are.
        deadbolt 3y ago
        > OP's inaction is implicit, elsewise they would have attempted to explain what efforts have been attempted to resolve the issue. That's absolute nonsense. There's no reason for OP to disclose that information in relation to the post they made. They were just posting a personal experience, not looking for anyone's advice.
than3 3y ago
More than likely its intentional. One of the main reasons TikTok has been grilled by congress is because of China's stance and willingness to violate any law for their own benefit. One of those benefits not very commonly understood in America by the general populace is Political Warfare, which China calls the destruction of national will in their own documentation. The USMC University has an ebook that is freely available that describes what is done, why its important, and its effects. It is a worthwhile read, if you do further research on this know that Bezmenov is not credible; there are much more credible sources, that's not to say what he says is necessarily incorrect, the best deceit weaves truth into lies. The general gist is they seek to put people into a psychological state of demoralization, in that state you typically polarize into two separate groups. Apathetic and complacent where you don't react to anything, and the other where you lash out at anything that you perceive or triggers you (through psychological anchoring [using NLP vocabulary], and various form of isolation). The conflict between these three groups (apathetic, violent, rational) allows a smaller number of people to seize power in a destabilization event which is a regime change playbook that most governments have used at one point or another. Historically, the last stage of that playbook involves getting back to a new normal by consolidating, and eliminating detractors (those people that lashed out). Its subtle, and deceitful, but certain things you just can't give others the benefit of the doubt. Existential threats to your individual identity (which is what's often targeted during propaganda, and political warfare efforts), are one of those things. If its present, the source isn't credible and shouldn't be used regardless of what they say. P.S. There's also a lawsuit from a TikTok insider that just made headlines recently disclosing how code was in the app to allow CCP backdoor access to US data and amplify or de-amplify narratives according to Communist core values. If there was any question about TikTok's credibility and their narrative that they don't do this; that pretty much seals the deal given everything else assuming of course what was said is factually correct. They clearly would not have credibility, which would eliminate them as a potential choice in any risk management analysis you might need to do. [Link]: https://www.businessinsider.com/new-lawsuit-alleges-tiktok-owner-let-ccp-access-user-data-2023-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/new-lawsuit-alleges-tiktok-o...
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Here’s the solution here: 1. Proper data protection laws that apply universally to every company. No more “oh sorry we fucked up here’s free credit monitoring”. I’m talking fines of 5% base + 1% daily increase for every day they delay announcing their fuck up of global revenue. If they’ve tried to hide it and it comes out later, that company gets nationalized. 2. Actual lawsuits against the various social media companies that have actively aided in manipulating people. E.g Cambridge Analytica 3. Removal of any “limited liability” protections against execs that actively stood by and waited for this to happen. Execs being defined by the top 10-20% of the company by both assets and income (stock and cash) If you’re talking about “communist core values” you’re, respectfully, fallen into a weird propaganda trap. Nothing about China is “communist”. North Korea calls themselves democratic, but no one actually calls them that. To me, your comment sounds like a bag of Sinophobia mixed in with a bunch of “ok” takes assuming you want this applied to everyone. Not just the new big baddie.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
Similar context, Facebook. Every couple weeks a story about small children dying in horrible circumstances "pops up". It's usually a crime story, a news report, or an article about history (most recently, about intentional murder of children during WWII). It's always so hard-hitting emotionally that even her re-telling me what it was about is enough to break my emotional balance. Every time a story like this "pops up", the evening is a write-off. I've already, with her consent, wiped her advertising profiles once. This reduced the incidents from, at its peak, every couple days, to every couple weeks. Thing is, none of these stories are against any kind of content policy. News reporting and articles about history are all above-board. But this kind of stuff showing up on her feed, mixed with "normal" baby stuff, with alarming frequency? That's for the first time that I felt how "the algorithm" can fuck people over.
surgical_fire 3y ago
Out of curiosity, why haven't she stopped using TikTok? It's an honest question. Many years ago, I tried using Facebook. I few months later I decided it was causing distress, as political discussion among people I knew was reducing my respect for friends and acquaintances. My next logical action was to completely abandon Facebook. I didn't even bother to delete my account, I just removed the app and never browsed it again. I always wonder why people keep using apps that distress them.
- erulabs 3y ago
  She actually is using it less because of this. I showed her this thread and her response was that these sudden and intense emotional videos hidden among the dozens of happy ones is actually why she doesn’t use is as much as she would otherwise.
- SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
  For the same reason people inject another hit of heroin despite the fact that they know it's killing them. Never underestimate the power of the dopaminergic reward pathways in governing maladaptive behaviour.
raihansaputra 3y ago
idk how TikTok gets the signal but I find myself doing the same manually on Reddit. Scroll through my usual subs then I'll reflexively go through r/all and pay more attention/look into sad/enraging posts. It's a cycle of trying to get a hit of it and emotional sledgehammers works well.

parker_mountain 3y ago

It's not intentional in the sense that they're trying to do that to her, but their algorithm likely determined that showing a video in that cohort leads to increased use of their app.

TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
No no no. You're confused. There is no algorithm acting independently. The responsibile agent(s) is(are) a person(people).
- parker_mountain 3y ago
  No no no. You're confused. I didn't absolve the creator of guilt, I just said that it's unlikely they're intentionally trying to make her sad. They're just trying to increase engagement - at any cost.
  - xapata 3y ago
    Why? What motivates ByteDance?
    - spondylosaurus 3y ago
      Profit, presumably? Same as any other company. Engagement = profit has been the formula for some time now.
      - xapata 3y ago
        There's some speculation that ByteDance is motivated by political goals as well as, or more than, profit.
- placatedmayhem 3y ago
  Exactly. These outcomes are the results of the algorithms and their tuning, whether intentional or not. Humans are responsible for it and can tune it differently, to a different result. However, these new tunings may reduce engagement or other profit drivers, which a for-profit company will obviously not want to do.
neilv 3y ago
> It's not intentional in the sense that they're trying to do that to her, Do you know this for certain?
- parker_mountain 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure "tiktok is specifically trying to make people sad" and "tiktok does not really care if they hurt people as long as they increase engagement" are two separate concepts.
  - neilv 3y ago
    Yes, and reportedly neither is a completely resolved question.
  - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
    Is the former out of the question?
- erehweb 3y ago
  What would TikTok's motivation be to make her sad?
  - fear_and_coffee 3y ago
    [dead]
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    The USA's FBI currently claims: The counterintelligence and economic espionage efforts emanating from the government of China and the Chinese Communist Party are a grave threat to the economic well-being and democratic values of the United States. Confronting this threat is the FBI’s top counterintelligence priority. To be clear, the adversary is not the Chinese people or people of Chinese descent or heritage. The threat comes from the programs and policies pursued by an authoritarian government. The Chinese government is employing tactics that seek to influence lawmakers and public opinion to achieve policies that are more favorable to China. At the same time, the Chinese government is seeking to become the world’s greatest superpower through predatory lending and business practices, systematic theft of intellectual property, and brazen cyber intrusions. China’s efforts target businesses, academic institutions, researchers, lawmakers, and the general public and will require a whole-of-society response. The government and the private sector must commit to working together to better understand and counter the threat. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-china-threat https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin... ByteDance's motives should, by now, be clear.
andrewjl 3y ago
> algorithm likely determined that showing a video in that cohort leads to increased use of their app Development, selection, tuning, and ultimately deployment of that algorithm were all intentional actions.

TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago

And you... permit this to continue? Intentionally?

suddenclarity 3y ago
Permit? Your wife? It's not a kid you can revoke internet access from.
- TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
  No, that would be unskilful. I protect my SO, with whom I cohabitate, by sharing my knowledge and experience with. By leading. If my SO starts exhibiting behaviour indicative of new psychological / physical pathology, we deal with it, together. We, I, don't do nothing. That's what's commonly referred to as enabling.
  - jjj123 3y ago
    Where did the OP say they’ve done nothing? Isn’t it entirely possible they’ve said how they feel about it, and their partner decided not to listen to them for whatever reason? I had a partner who smoked and continually encouraged them to quit. It took years. Pathological behaviors are hard to break.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
      OP's inaction is implicit, elsewise they would have attempted to explain what efforts have been attempted to resolve the issue. As is the generally accepted method of writing comments around here. Absence of further explanation is invitation of discuss. So here we are.
      - deadbolt 3y ago
        > OP's inaction is implicit, elsewise they would have attempted to explain what efforts have been attempted to resolve the issue. That's absolute nonsense. There's no reason for OP to disclose that information in relation to the post they made. They were just posting a personal experience, not looking for anyone's advice.

than3 3y ago

More than likely its intentional. One of the main reasons TikTok has been grilled by congress is because of China's stance and willingness to violate any law for their own benefit. One of those benefits not very commonly understood in America by the general populace is Political Warfare, which China calls the destruction of national will in their own documentation. The USMC University has an ebook that is freely available that describes what is done, why its important, and its effects. It is a worthwhile read, if you do further research on this know that Bezmenov is not credible; there are much more credible sources, that's not to say what he says is necessarily incorrect, the best deceit weaves truth into lies. The general gist is they seek to put people into a psychological state of demoralization, in that state you typically polarize into two separate groups. Apathetic and complacent where you don't react to anything, and the other where you lash out at anything that you perceive or triggers you (through psychological anchoring [using NLP vocabulary], and various form of isolation). The conflict between these three groups (apathetic, violent, rational) allows a smaller number of people to seize power in a destabilization event which is a regime change playbook that most governments have used at one point or another. Historically, the last stage of that playbook involves getting back to a new normal by consolidating, and eliminating detractors (those people that lashed out). Its subtle, and deceitful, but certain things you just can't give others the benefit of the doubt. Existential threats to your individual identity (which is what's often targeted during propaganda, and political warfare efforts), are one of those things. If its present, the source isn't credible and shouldn't be used regardless of what they say. P.S. There's also a lawsuit from a TikTok insider that just made headlines recently disclosing how code was in the app to allow CCP backdoor access to US data and amplify or de-amplify narratives according to Communist core values. If there was any question about TikTok's credibility and their narrative that they don't do this; that pretty much seals the deal given everything else assuming of course what was said is factually correct. They clearly would not have credibility, which would eliminate them as a potential choice in any risk management analysis you might need to do. [Link]: https://www.businessinsider.com/new-lawsuit-alleges-tiktok-owner-let-ccp-access-user-data-2023-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/new-lawsuit-alleges-tiktok-o...

aaomidi 3y ago
Here’s the solution here: 1. Proper data protection laws that apply universally to every company. No more “oh sorry we fucked up here’s free credit monitoring”. I’m talking fines of 5% base + 1% daily increase for every day they delay announcing their fuck up of global revenue. If they’ve tried to hide it and it comes out later, that company gets nationalized. 2. Actual lawsuits against the various social media companies that have actively aided in manipulating people. E.g Cambridge Analytica 3. Removal of any “limited liability” protections against execs that actively stood by and waited for this to happen. Execs being defined by the top 10-20% of the company by both assets and income (stock and cash) If you’re talking about “communist core values” you’re, respectfully, fallen into a weird propaganda trap. Nothing about China is “communist”. North Korea calls themselves democratic, but no one actually calls them that. To me, your comment sounds like a bag of Sinophobia mixed in with a bunch of “ok” takes assuming you want this applied to everyone. Not just the new big baddie.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

Similar context, Facebook. Every couple weeks a story about small children dying in horrible circumstances "pops up". It's usually a crime story, a news report, or an article about history (most recently, about intentional murder of children during WWII). It's always so hard-hitting emotionally that even her re-telling me what it was about is enough to break my emotional balance. Every time a story like this "pops up", the evening is a write-off. I've already, with her consent, wiped her advertising profiles once. This reduced the incidents from, at its peak, every couple days, to every couple weeks. Thing is, none of these stories are against any kind of content policy. News reporting and articles about history are all above-board. But this kind of stuff showing up on her feed, mixed with "normal" baby stuff, with alarming frequency? That's for the first time that I felt how "the algorithm" can fuck people over.

surgical_fire 3y ago

Out of curiosity, why haven't she stopped using TikTok? It's an honest question. Many years ago, I tried using Facebook. I few months later I decided it was causing distress, as political discussion among people I knew was reducing my respect for friends and acquaintances. My next logical action was to completely abandon Facebook. I didn't even bother to delete my account, I just removed the app and never browsed it again. I always wonder why people keep using apps that distress them.

erulabs 3y ago
She actually is using it less because of this. I showed her this thread and her response was that these sudden and intense emotional videos hidden among the dozens of happy ones is actually why she doesn’t use is as much as she would otherwise.
SturgeonsLaw 3y ago
For the same reason people inject another hit of heroin despite the fact that they know it's killing them. Never underestimate the power of the dopaminergic reward pathways in governing maladaptive behaviour.

raihansaputra 3y ago

idk how TikTok gets the signal but I find myself doing the same manually on Reddit. Scroll through my usual subs then I'll reflexively go through r/all and pay more attention/look into sad/enraging posts. It's a cycle of trying to get a hit of it and emotional sledgehammers works well.