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Please, please stop using Xorg with Asahi Linux
- not_your_vase 3y ago> Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. In general this sentence is why the Year of Desktop Linux won't come in this millennia. Not only XOrg vs Wayland. Many such cases. Sad!
- PlutoIsAPlanet 3y agoXorg vs Wayland isn't a thing because Wayland is the replacement for Xorg.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- c4mpute 3y agoWayland doesn't really replace Xorg, tons of things are nonworking, downright weird, stupid or neglected in Wayland. The original article even says so.
- rascul 3y agoI read the article four times and didn't find a reference to tons of things not working, weird, stupid, or neglected in Wayland.
- mort96 3y agoThe people who used to work on X now work on Wayland. It is the way forward for graphics on Linux as Xorg is unmaintained. How does that not mean that Wayland replaces X?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bombolo 3y agoExcept a lot of things don't work with it. For example shortcuts. Which is why people keep using xorg… wayland is NOT a drop in replacement.
- ZiiS 3y agoKeyboard shortcuts? I have only really used Sway but it just kept my i3 shortcuts working; never noticed any change?
- bombolo 3y agoa completely different software reimplemented the same shortcuts. This is not the same as having an existing software keep working with the same shortcuts.
- 0beef 3y agoKeyboard shortcuts or desktop shortcuts? my experience with kwyboard shortcuts on sway/gnome is that they're implemented differently on a wm-by-wm basis
- bombolo 3y agowhat's a desktop shortcut? keyboard shortcuts is what I'm referring to
- samwillis 3y agoNo, the reason "Linux on the Desktop" won't happen is that it's not shipped by any (significant) hardware manufacturer for general desktop use. No one (in the scheme of things) installs an OS that didn't come with their hardware, and they never will. Open source developers, contributors and purists can't change that, no matter how hard they try. But, Android is a thing, and Linux is literally everywhere. OS has won, even if the mythical "Desktop Linux" didn't.
- not_your_vase 3y agoIn 2023 I have to push back on this. Installing one of the the mainline distros is easier, user-friendlier and faster than installing a random soundcard driver on windows. After installing their first distro, most people have a good experience. Then they install an update, that causes some ridiculous regression. At this time they have 2 choices: spend 2 weeks on reading all kind of arcane documentation, or go back to whatever they were using before. Or ask the maintainer, who responds "deal with it". Just as another, fresh example, look at this: https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2023/05/10/gnome-core-apps-update/ https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2023/05/10/gnome-core-app... - Gnome finally has thumbnails in the file picker, but they removed the music player. You can't have everything, I guess. This kind of attitude why the Year of Desktop Linux will not be seen by our generation, not evil manufacturers.
- protonbob 3y ago> faster than installing a random soundcard driver on windows. Do you have to burn a flashdrive image, navigate through odd commands to disable secure boot, and find the magical incantation to boot from USB to install a soundcard driver?
- rascul 3y agoWhich mainstream distros still don't work with secure boot?
- samwillis 3y agoOh, I'm not denying that the UX is there, it has been at par or better for 20 years. It's just no one will ever do it - except for developers, enthusiasts, or people in specific industries. I would love it to happen but the suggestion that there is anything the developer community can do is wrong. This isn't like the move to get friends and family to swap to Firefox in 2004, that was easy, it was in parallel with no data or app loss. With no new UX to learn. I can get my parents to change to a different web browser. I could never get them to swap to Linux. I doubt I could get them to reinstall the os they currently use!
- tremon 3y ago> Yes, not every random expansion card or peripheral you use on Windows XP will have a Windows Vista/7 driver. Deal with it. That doesn't seem to have hurt the year of Desktop Windows too much.
- temac 3y agoThe graphic stack did not broke application and workflow compat between the two, though. Neither did it incitate to couple the desktop to the graphic server, on the contrary it even made the system resilient to graphic driver crashes.
- ziml77 3y agoThe difference is that going forward, people will target the latest changes to Windows because the previous versions will decline in usage since they are seeing no more effort put in by MS. With a situation like Xorg vs Wayland people will have two targets going into the foreseeable future because both still have active development.
- 0beef 3y agoI think that the ability to depreciate aspects of the OS is one of GNU-Linux's greatest strengths. For example, look how saddled MS Windows is by the burden of binary reverse-compatibility. It makes the leap to other arches like ARM nearly impossible. Yes, some features of X11 are not present in Wayland. But the incomplete reverse-compatibility allows us to decide if those features are worth it in the first place. And if you don't like it you can patch it yourself.
- imiric 3y agoThat quote is exactly why Linux will never reach mainstream adoption. Arrogant Linux developers who pick a hill to die on because they feel technology X is "better". They refuse to acknowledge that none of it matters if it negatively impacts user experience. This "deal with it" attitude is beyond obnoxious. User experience is ALL that matters. Apple has this ingrained in their ethos. While the OSS communities are bickering over X vs Y, they chose to pick what's usable and polish it until it delivered great UX. Last time I checked, Wayland was broken in fundamental ways on my NixOS/KDE machine. So I went back to Xorg, that for all its ancient faults, delivers a better UX _today_. I'll keep trying Wayland every few months, and when it becomes an improvement, I'll consider switching to it. No, I won't "deal with it". Why don't YOU fix it?* *If you tell me that it's not up to you, but to application developers to add support for Wayland, I'll drop kick your sticker-infested laptop, and curse whoever came up with this ridiculous system.
- sgtnoodle 3y agoI thought the last paragraph of the main article was interesting. They admit that they chose to default to xorg over wayland in the distro because it worked better without hardware acceleration. Now they're ranting that their users are using xorg? At work I have deprecated many older software components in favor of implementing newer, less painful to maintain ones. Lots of other software engineers use those components, so a big part of it is documentation or training. Rather than harp on the flaws of the old thing, I try to objectively present the lessons learned from it, with an emphasis on all the good aspects of the original that carried forward into the replacement. That generally makes the transition smoother, especially for getting buy-in from the folk that were involved with developing the original implementation. I also wouldn't tell someone not to use an existing component that works, unless I have a concrete recommendation for a better alternative.
- imiric 3y ago> At work I have deprecated many older software components in favor of implementing newer, less painful to maintain ones. That's great, but know that you're optimizing your QoL over the users'. If and when that new shiny thing becomes an objective improvement of the user experience, only then will users share your joy of switching to something easier to maintain. Just don't expect, or even worse, force users to switch just because it makes life easier for you. > I also wouldn't tell someone not to use an existing component that works, unless I have a concrete recommendation for a better alternative. Yes, this is key. And precisely what the person in TFA is failing to do. UX >>> DX, always.
- rascul 3y ago> In general this sentence is why the Year of Desktop Linux won't come in this millennia. It came in the '90s. Not sure what people keep going on about.
- qbasic_forever 3y agoNo you won't be able to control auto updates anymore on Windows 10. Deal with it. No you won't be able to edit system files on Mac OSX without rebooting into the bios effectively. Deal with it. Every platform does dumb, annoying stuff. Deal with it.
- roenxi 3y agoI'd go a bit further and say that is also why Wayland in particular has struggled with adoption given the lack of anyone maintaining X and the general support of maintainers for Wayland. It was a bad sign when screenshots required major architecture changes to how a linux system was expected to run. Still, X.org is terrible and can be reasonably called the Internet Explorer 6 of the linux desktop. At least Wayland will be easier to displace if anyone comes up with something better. This is a step forward.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoThe Internet Explorer 6? IE6 is 17 years newer than X11.
- kaba0 3y ago> It was a bad sign when screenshots required major architecture changes That’s FUD. The reason around the controversy about screenshots is as simple as gnome wanting to do it right from first principles, that is to also include proper support for taking video recordings/streaming, which is much more complex, while wlroots were looking for a simple “take a picture” mode at first. They couldn’t come to agreement on a common protocol for a time, end of story. This is due to the bazaar style of development, has no technical reason. Apple can just say they will switch to this new tech in x time, linux can’t really.
- roenxi 3y agoIt is obvious there is no technical reason - computers have been able to take screenshots for around 40 years. The issue is the Wayland protocol thought it could get away with no provisions for sharing buffers and so its adoption was crippled while people discovered that they needed to implement a new Wayland+ standard or live without screenshots. We're probably never going to be in a situation where someone can "implement Wayland" and have an acceptable desktop. The real standard to be implemented was written as part of the sway team circa 2018 (eg, https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlr-protocols/-/commit/75f284b64fe7fddbd165123e0430fa1c162350bf https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlr-protocols/-/commi...).
- Kenji 3y ago[dead]
- jasoneckert 3y agoThis makes perfect sense - the Asahi project is about developing a robust Linux distro for Apple Silicon systems and must focus their limited resources on achieving that goal. Spending time to support X.org - which is quickly becoming deprecated for Wayland - isn't a good use of their limited resources.
- arbitrage 3y ago> X.org - which is quickly becoming deprecated for Wayland I'm not sure 'quickly' really is the right word choice there.
- midasuni 3y agoRelative to ipv6
- sylware 3y agoA dma-buf/vulkan wayland compositor (written in plain, lean and simple C), xwayland for that horrible steam client and a few old/unmaintain games/apps, and you are good to go, for a less horrible digital world.
- gjvc 3y agowhich is quickly becoming deprecated for Wayland On what planet is this true? update: I sit somewhat corrected. I have retried KDE with an NVidia card and /usr/bin/Xwayland and am impressed. Not 100% perfect, but very usable.
- zamadatix 3y agoNote xwayland isn't included in that. Also some read deprecation as already replaced which isn't necessarily the same thing. Being Asahi is not only brand new but not even near a first stable release the amount of surprise about the lack of xorg focus seems as silly as those that act like wayland reached parity 2 years ago
- 3y ago
- psanford 3y agoI'm an Asahi user and I back the project on Patreon. I also use xorg and don't have any plans on switching to Wayland any time soon. My reason is simple, there isn't an equivalent to xmonad on Wayland (nope sway isn't an equivalent for me). I don't have any issue with Asahi focusing on Wayland first. But this attitude doesn't make me feel great. Is it really so difficult to have a little bit of empathy for your end users?
- mdhen 3y agoYou are so entitled. Xorg is dead, you can use it. Don't expect anyone to help you though.
- michaelmrose 3y agoThe person expressed disappointment not entitlement. People aren't entitled to others labor but they are certainly entitled to have an opinion. Aside from that X is still used by the majority of users. Calling it dead is to invoke Monty Python. X: I'm not dead yet Wayland Proponents: Well, he will be soon. He's very ill. X: I support rootless operation and mixed DPI Wayland Proponents: You'll be stone dead in a moment. X: I think I'll release a new version of a window manager Wayland Proponents: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do? X: [singing] I feel happy. I feel happy. [whop]
- gjsman-1000 3y ago> Is it really so difficult to have a little bit of empathy for your end users? That’s easy to say if you’ve never worked on Xorg. The codebase is one of the worst in existence, few people fully understand it, and fixing bugs in it is a modern Sisyphean wheel.
- psanford 3y agoI'm really not asking for that. I'm asking for communication that doesn't feel dismissive.
- 3y ago
- gjvc 3y agoWayland is to Xorg as IPv6 is to IPv4
- aorth 3y agoA useful resource for finding Wayland applications: https://arewewaylandyet.com/ https://arewewaylandyet.com/
- rektide 3y agoHN discussion, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32020326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32020326
- FloatArtifact 3y agoGood luck getting window titles on Wayland. If anyone knows how. Such a basic concept that empowers accessibility software and automation software.
- rektide 3y agoWow it is hard seeing such blowback here in the comments. This is such an obvious sensible path. We have to pick where we put our energies. No one should be expecting to see much effort or caring on X.org. It's not what's happening, going forward.
- t-3 3y ago> It's not what's happening, going forward. By all indications, neither is Wayland. It's barely any more usable without running an X server on top today than 10 years ago.
- rektide 3y agoThere is a happy silent majority that disagrees. I personally almost never need to run Xwayland. My terminals (kitty, alacrity), web browser, all work great in Wayland with good hidpi scaling. Vscode has good support now too I hear. KiCad seems close to landing good support. I use OBS & it works amazing; Pipewire+Wayland is a modern marvel & such a faster cleaner better system than the slow costly trashfires we had. https://arewewaylandyet.com/ https://arewewaylandyet.com/ fills most of the rest of the little needs I have.
- johnea 3y agoPeople should run whatever they want. Who really cares what this dork thinks...
- michaelmrose 3y ago> Yes, not every random app and feature you use on Xorg will have a Wayland equivalent. Deal with it. This isn't a good argument for adopting new technology when the new contender offers nothing of note over the old and the all but unmaintained, broken in fundamental ways option continues to work the way it did a decade or two ago. It's his playground, it's free, and he can do what he likes with it but if people are using X11 its probably not because they hadn't heard such rants before its because people know their own needs better than the distro developer.
- Brian_K_White 3y agoNo thanks. Seriously develop whatever you want to, but telling users what to do is a whole other class of unaware.