7 ms·

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

gjsman-1000 3y ago
They've made commitments, at least enough to convince Europe and the US that they are working on it... but whether they will spend more than $5.20 on enforcement, I doubt. Far more fun and strategic to let the US and EU do what they do and shout "We're with you!" from the sidelines. China also makes 80% of the world's solar panels, so we shouldn't pretend that China convincing the US to decarbonize doesn't have some pretty nice business interest in selling them to us - even though it is only 3.5% of their energy generation over there. Kind of like how China is a WTO member, claims to support Copyright, upholds Patent Law, and respects Intellectual Property. They also respect their Constitution, including the provisions for Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, and have an independent Supreme Court to enforce checks-and-balances on their President. They also have a Functioning Democracy with 8 other political parties. Anyone who has actually interacted with them in any of those fields...
- Haga 3y ago
  [dead]
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  The CCP is dedicated to social stability. China has a long history of environmental disasters causing political unrest. Being a democracy is actually bad for taking action on this issue. The Republicans are still denying climate change.
gumby 3y ago
> (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfish it's a good deal.
- goatlover 3y ago
  The climate doesn’t care about per capita. The developing world has the majority of the population, so the majority of additional CO2 will be coming from there.
  - boterock 3y ago
    Fun way to look at it, you at the north give us a lot of planned obsolence goods in exchange for our monies. North even gets into politics pushing developing countries infrastructure towards oil economies. and then, we consume what you led us to, and suddenly we're the bad guys.
    - goatlover 3y ago
      Humanity is the bad guy. Well, the planet doesn’t care. It’s about how much climate change we want to deal with.
  - realityking 3y ago
    In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. If we believe that every country has the right to develop, than the poorest countries emission will increase. Better technology will flatten that increase but those are expensive. Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of these technologies will reduce cost and allow developing countries to deploy them in the future.
    - spacebanana7 3y ago
      > In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. Being charitable, it’d clearly be an environmental disaster if everyone in the world consumed oil at the per capita level of OECD countries. I imagine global oil consumption would multiply manyfold. > Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of these technologies will reduce cost and allow developing countries to deploy them in the future. I too used to think this, but it seems like most of the progress in solar has come from China. Similar with nuclear power plants.
TrainedMonkey 3y ago
This video summarizes this point pretty well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo&t=201s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo&t=201s I don't know the solution because the problem is huge, but my strong suspicion is that focusing on industrial efficiency is the largest needle we can move. Specifically, making it economically sensible to use green technologies in developing countries.
kieranmaine 3y ago
This is covered in the article: "Europe’s steelmakers have one more strong incentive to get decarbonising. Under the eu emissions-trading system, they are currently awarded 80% of their allowances for CO2 emissions free of charge in order to remain competitive with dirtier producers in places like China and India. Over the next ten years the eu will phase out these freebies and replace them with a carbon tariff on dirty imports. If eu steelmakers stay grey, calculates Morgan Stanley, their profits could sink by up to 70%."
ognarb 3y ago
I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  [flagged]
- quasarsunnix 3y ago
  I think that's a great idea and could be applied to a lot of industries with large offshore carbon footprints. Maybe tariffs or quota limits that are linked to carbon?
- zokier 3y ago
  > The Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism will apply to imports across several sectors, including steel and aluminum, forcing them to respect EU environmental standards. It will come into effect in 2026 or 2027. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/12/13/eu-adopts-carbon-border-tax-to-fight-polluting-imports_6007589_114.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/12/13/eu-...
  - Gravityloss 3y ago
    yes, this is bigger news than people realize!
  - euroderf 3y ago
    The EU should have had something like this to apply to imports from the USA a long time ago. But, better late than never. Play nice with Biden.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
TheSmiddy 3y ago
China is rapidly decarbonising their transport, faster than any other country. They also produce the vast majority of the world's solar panels.
yongjik 3y ago
There are Wikipedia articles for 2015 Indian heat wave (2,500 dead), 2016 heat wave, 2019 heat wave, 2022 heat wave, and the current ongoing 2023 heat wave. 2021 Henan flood killed hundreds and forced evacuation of 800k people. Imagine what you want, but nobody's laughing any more.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Prisoner's dilemma. What better way to pay for flood walls and air conditioning, than profitable high-emission industry.
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    Except that isn’t true anymore. The tight coupling between economic development and CO2 emissions has been broken, and there’s no longer any reason to believe that high CO2 output industry is best way for developing countries to improve their standards of living. The west might have burned its way to economic development, but developing nations are forging their own paths, and hydrocarbons aren’t the industrial requirement they used to be, or even the most economical way to producing energy. Choosing “green” alternatives also means choosing alternatives that faster and easier to deploy, work incredibly well in decentralised systems, and are often cheaper and easier to repair.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
> Wenbo He, secretary of the Party Committee and executive chairman of the China Iron and Steel Association (CISA), spoke about China’s green steel plans at the integration conference of green steel, green energy and green finance industries on March 2 https://www.fastmarkets.com/insights/chinas-roadmap-to-green-steel https://www.fastmarkets.com/insights/chinas-roadmap-to-green...
solarkraft 3y ago
Yes, they are. The bank is Europe.
defrost 3y ago
China takes this seriously: World’s biggest steel maker (based in China) eyes new green steel plant in WA (Western Australia) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/world-s-biggest-steel-maker-eyes-new-green-steel-plant-in-wa-20230512-p5d80l.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/world-... > Western Australia is in the running to host a green steel plant bankrolled by the world’s biggest steel maker, China Baowu Group. > During talks with Trade Minister Don Farrell in Beijing, company chairman Chen Dorong said the availability of clean energy and ore made Western Australia ideal as a site for the new facility. > The biggest buyer of Australian iron ore wants to decarbonise operations but is also eyeing West Africa, South America and Saudi Arabia as alternatives. The largest resource companies are making commitments they regret, but are now tied to public statements and shareholders to meet: Rio Tinto boss says he regrets ambitious emissions targets https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/rio-tinto-boss-says-he-regrets-ambitious-emissions-targets-20230505-p5d5za.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/rio-ti... > Rio Tinto boss Jakob Stausholm has admitted he regrets the company’s ambitious emission reduction targets, doubling down on comments about the feasibility of moving to renewable energy at the pace expected. > “There have been a lot of strong statements made [about the energy transition], but I don’t think people have realised and accounted for the process of getting the land, the cultural clearings and then executing the project,” Stausholm told a business breakfast in Perth on Friday.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
Not having heavy industry means less pollution. China has serious environmental issues. Which costs you money in the long run.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

They've made commitments, at least enough to convince Europe and the US that they are working on it... but whether they will spend more than $5.20 on enforcement, I doubt. Far more fun and strategic to let the US and EU do what they do and shout "We're with you!" from the sidelines. China also makes 80% of the world's solar panels, so we shouldn't pretend that China convincing the US to decarbonize doesn't have some pretty nice business interest in selling them to us - even though it is only 3.5% of their energy generation over there. Kind of like how China is a WTO member, claims to support Copyright, upholds Patent Law, and respects Intellectual Property. They also respect their Constitution, including the provisions for Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, and have an independent Supreme Court to enforce checks-and-balances on their President. They also have a Functioning Democracy with 8 other political parties. Anyone who has actually interacted with them in any of those fields...

Haga 3y ago
[dead]
WeylandYutani 3y ago
The CCP is dedicated to social stability. China has a long history of environmental disasters causing political unrest. Being a democracy is actually bad for taking action on this issue. The Republicans are still denying climate change.

gumby 3y ago

> (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfish it's a good deal.

goatlover 3y ago
The climate doesn’t care about per capita. The developing world has the majority of the population, so the majority of additional CO2 will be coming from there.
- boterock 3y ago
  Fun way to look at it, you at the north give us a lot of planned obsolence goods in exchange for our monies. North even gets into politics pushing developing countries infrastructure towards oil economies. and then, we consume what you led us to, and suddenly we're the bad guys.
  - goatlover 3y ago
    Humanity is the bad guy. Well, the planet doesn’t care. It’s about how much climate change we want to deal with.
- realityking 3y ago
  In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. If we believe that every country has the right to develop, than the poorest countries emission will increase. Better technology will flatten that increase but those are expensive. Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of these technologies will reduce cost and allow developing countries to deploy them in the future.
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    > In effect you‘re saying that countries that are poor today must not be allowed to reach the level of western countries. I don‘t have a good word for it but that‘s a very specific worldview. Being charitable, it’d clearly be an environmental disaster if everyone in the world consumed oil at the per capita level of OECD countries. I imagine global oil consumption would multiply manyfold. > Wealthy countries pioneering the widespread use of these technologies will reduce cost and allow developing countries to deploy them in the future. I too used to think this, but it seems like most of the progress in solar has come from China. Similar with nuclear power plants.

TrainedMonkey 3y ago

This video summarizes this point pretty well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo&t=201s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo&t=201s I don't know the solution because the problem is huge, but my strong suspicion is that focusing on industrial efficiency is the largest needle we can move. Specifically, making it economically sensible to use green technologies in developing countries.

kieranmaine 3y ago

This is covered in the article: "Europe’s steelmakers have one more strong incentive to get decarbonising. Under the eu emissions-trading system, they are currently awarded 80% of their allowances for CO2 emissions free of charge in order to remain competitive with dirtier producers in places like China and India. Over the next ten years the eu will phase out these freebies and replace them with a carbon tariff on dirty imports. If eu steelmakers stay grey, calculates Morgan Stanley, their profits could sink by up to 70%."

ognarb 3y ago

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

penneallagricia 3y ago
[flagged]
quasarsunnix 3y ago
I think that's a great idea and could be applied to a lot of industries with large offshore carbon footprints. Maybe tariffs or quota limits that are linked to carbon?
zokier 3y ago
> The Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism will apply to imports across several sectors, including steel and aluminum, forcing them to respect EU environmental standards. It will come into effect in 2026 or 2027. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/12/13/eu-adopts-carbon-border-tax-to-fight-polluting-imports_6007589_114.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/12/13/eu-...
- Gravityloss 3y ago
  yes, this is bigger news than people realize!
- euroderf 3y ago
  The EU should have had something like this to apply to imports from the USA a long time ago. But, better late than never. Play nice with Biden.
penneallagricia 3y ago
[flagged]
- CogitoCogito 3y ago

TheSmiddy 3y ago

China is rapidly decarbonising their transport, faster than any other country. They also produce the vast majority of the world's solar panels.

yongjik 3y ago

There are Wikipedia articles for 2015 Indian heat wave (2,500 dead), 2016 heat wave, 2019 heat wave, 2022 heat wave, and the current ongoing 2023 heat wave. 2021 Henan flood killed hundreds and forced evacuation of 800k people. Imagine what you want, but nobody's laughing any more.

HPsquared 3y ago
Prisoner's dilemma. What better way to pay for flood walls and air conditioning, than profitable high-emission industry.
- avianlyric 3y ago
  Except that isn’t true anymore. The tight coupling between economic development and CO2 emissions has been broken, and there’s no longer any reason to believe that high CO2 output industry is best way for developing countries to improve their standards of living. The west might have burned its way to economic development, but developing nations are forging their own paths, and hydrocarbons aren’t the industrial requirement they used to be, or even the most economical way to producing energy. Choosing “green” alternatives also means choosing alternatives that faster and easier to deploy, work incredibly well in decentralised systems, and are often cheaper and easier to repair.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

> Wenbo He, secretary of the Party Committee and executive chairman of the China Iron and Steel Association (CISA), spoke about China’s green steel plans at the integration conference of green steel, green energy and green finance industries on March 2 https://www.fastmarkets.com/insights/chinas-roadmap-to-green-steel https://www.fastmarkets.com/insights/chinas-roadmap-to-green...

solarkraft 3y ago

Yes, they are. The bank is Europe.

defrost 3y ago

China takes this seriously: World’s biggest steel maker (based in China) eyes new green steel plant in WA (Western Australia) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/world-s-biggest-steel-maker-eyes-new-green-steel-plant-in-wa-20230512-p5d80l.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/world-... > Western Australia is in the running to host a green steel plant bankrolled by the world’s biggest steel maker, China Baowu Group. > During talks with Trade Minister Don Farrell in Beijing, company chairman Chen Dorong said the availability of clean energy and ore made Western Australia ideal as a site for the new facility. > The biggest buyer of Australian iron ore wants to decarbonise operations but is also eyeing West Africa, South America and Saudi Arabia as alternatives. The largest resource companies are making commitments they regret, but are now tied to public statements and shareholders to meet: Rio Tinto boss says he regrets ambitious emissions targets https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/rio-tinto-boss-says-he-regrets-ambitious-emissions-targets-20230505-p5d5za.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/rio-ti... > Rio Tinto boss Jakob Stausholm has admitted he regrets the company’s ambitious emission reduction targets, doubling down on comments about the feasibility of moving to renewable energy at the pace expected. > “There have been a lot of strong statements made [about the energy transition], but I don’t think people have realised and accounted for the process of getting the land, the cultural clearings and then executing the project,” Stausholm told a business breakfast in Perth on Friday.

WeylandYutani 3y ago

Not having heavy industry means less pollution. China has serious environmental issues. Which costs you money in the long run.