4 ms·

High incarceration rate makes sense when the US has a high crime rate. I don't understand why anyone thinks incarceration rate should not be correlated or would

High incarceration rate makes sense when the US has a high crime rate. I don't understand why anyone thinks incarceration rate should not be correlated or would not be correlate to crime rate. Incarcerating criminals isn't the issue, having so many criminals is the issue.

prmoustache 3y ago
Apparently incarceration and death penalty do not really work as a deterrent in this country. Is it because most of the violent crimes are related to drug addiction?
- jolux 3y ago
  The US prison system is violent and brutal, which begets a high recidivism rate. In my opinion this is because American culture tends to confuse retribution for justice but opinions vary I'm sure.
  - mc32 3y ago
    In most countries the prison system is unpleasant, including the UK, Italy, Spain, Japan, Ukraine, Mexico, etc. In addition the justice/legal systems slightly favor the prosecution. Salvador was overrun with gang violence, a new government came in, rounded up the gangsters and crime has gone down. On balance the population of Salvador is better off.
    - jolux 3y ago
      The problem with US prisons goes far beyond basic unpleasantness. Take it from the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-against-state-alabama-unconstitutional-conditions-states https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-laws... "'The Department of Justice conducted a thorough investigation of Alabama’s prisons for men and determined that Alabama violated and is continuing to violate the Constitution because its prisons are riddled with prisoner-on-prisoner and guard-on-prisoner violence. The violations have led to homicides, rapes, and serious injuries.'" This is not a system that is going to successfully reintegrate people. We owe a basic level of humane treatment even to prisoners, if not for the sake of liberal values than for the pragmatic reason that violent people who are put in an environment which encourages further violence will remain violent people when they are released back into our society.
      - mc32 3y ago
        The same department of justice that continues to prosecute a case against Assange? I'm nonplussed. Boris Becker (UK), Amanda Knox (IT), speak to prison brutality (and those are well known international personages.) Ukraine: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-years-on-and-still-no-justice-for-victims-of-enforced-disappearance/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-... Mexico: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-five-star-hell/2135358 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-... Spain: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_11 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_... Brazil: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-violence-so-bad-in-brazil/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-v... And in Paradise (I mean Cuba): https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-defenders-the-use-of-torture-in-cuba-on-political-prisoners-is-systematic-and-widespread https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-de... Etc...
        jolux 3y ago
        I linked the DOJ and not the Equal Justice Initiative because I thought they would be less likely to be seen as partisan or politically motivated. But here’s EJI on the same issue: https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ and Harvard Political Review making a similar argument to my top post (that US prisons don’t adequately rehabilitate): https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ And since you linked Amnesty, here’s their report on solitary confinement at ADX Florence: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners... Ukraine, Mexico, and Brazil are nowhere near as highly developed as the US. Spain is definitely closer, but Spain doesn’t execute people like the US does. Of course problems with prisons exist elsewhere. What’s specifically appalling about the US is the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and relative freedom with widespread, institutionalized abuse and neglect of prisoners, not just to their detriment, but to the detriment of the US as a whole.
        3y ago
  - omginternets 3y ago
    You could also argue that recidivists tend to aggregate in jail, so yeah, opinions will definitely vary.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Prison isn't supposed to be a deterrent in this country. It's to separate the criminals from everyone else.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    Not mutually exclusive.
    - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
      I think the homeless are our unhoused neighbors and I like Judge Dredd.
- omginternets 3y ago
  They serve a function other than deterrence: they remove criminals from the street. There is a certain political faction that has developed the habit of observing the effects of jail on criminals while ignoring the effect of criminals on the innocent. I think the parent is reacting to the disingenuousness of this position.
- shjake 3y ago
  Well be fair the overall decrease in crime rates over the last several decades seems to be somewhat correlated with increasing incarceration rates..
scotty79 3y ago
High incarceration rate might cause high crime. Especially since ex-convicts are almost banned from any work. The only thing they can do to sustain themselves is more crime. US views criminals a people who failed the society, while at these numbers it would be way more reasonable to see them as people failed by the society.

prmoustache 3y ago

Apparently incarceration and death penalty do not really work as a deterrent in this country. Is it because most of the violent crimes are related to drug addiction?

jolux 3y ago
The US prison system is violent and brutal, which begets a high recidivism rate. In my opinion this is because American culture tends to confuse retribution for justice but opinions vary I'm sure.
- mc32 3y ago
  In most countries the prison system is unpleasant, including the UK, Italy, Spain, Japan, Ukraine, Mexico, etc. In addition the justice/legal systems slightly favor the prosecution. Salvador was overrun with gang violence, a new government came in, rounded up the gangsters and crime has gone down. On balance the population of Salvador is better off.
  - jolux 3y ago
    The problem with US prisons goes far beyond basic unpleasantness. Take it from the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-against-state-alabama-unconstitutional-conditions-states https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-laws... "'The Department of Justice conducted a thorough investigation of Alabama’s prisons for men and determined that Alabama violated and is continuing to violate the Constitution because its prisons are riddled with prisoner-on-prisoner and guard-on-prisoner violence. The violations have led to homicides, rapes, and serious injuries.'" This is not a system that is going to successfully reintegrate people. We owe a basic level of humane treatment even to prisoners, if not for the sake of liberal values than for the pragmatic reason that violent people who are put in an environment which encourages further violence will remain violent people when they are released back into our society.
    - mc32 3y ago
      The same department of justice that continues to prosecute a case against Assange? I'm nonplussed. Boris Becker (UK), Amanda Knox (IT), speak to prison brutality (and those are well known international personages.) Ukraine: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-years-on-and-still-no-justice-for-victims-of-enforced-disappearance/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/ukraine-four-... Mexico: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-five-star-hell/2135358 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/mexicos-federal-prisons-a-... Spain: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_11 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-77231-8_... Brazil: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-violence-so-bad-in-brazil/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/qa-why-is-prison-v... And in Paradise (I mean Cuba): https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-defenders-the-use-of-torture-in-cuba-on-political-prisoners-is-systematic-and-widespread https://democraticspaces.com/trending/2022/3/29/prisoners-de... Etc...
      - jolux 3y ago
        I linked the DOJ and not the Equal Justice Initiative because I thought they would be less likely to be seen as partisan or politically motivated. But here’s EJI on the same issue: https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ https://eji.org/issues/prison-conditions/ and Harvard Political Review making a similar argument to my top post (that US prisons don’t adequately rehabilitate): https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ And since you linked Amnesty, here’s their report on solitary confinement at ADX Florence: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners-held-extreme-solitary-confinement-breach-international-law/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/usa-prisoners... Ukraine, Mexico, and Brazil are nowhere near as highly developed as the US. Spain is definitely closer, but Spain doesn’t execute people like the US does. Of course problems with prisons exist elsewhere. What’s specifically appalling about the US is the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and relative freedom with widespread, institutionalized abuse and neglect of prisoners, not just to their detriment, but to the detriment of the US as a whole.
        3y ago
- omginternets 3y ago
  You could also argue that recidivists tend to aggregate in jail, so yeah, opinions will definitely vary.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Prison isn't supposed to be a deterrent in this country. It's to separate the criminals from everyone else.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Not mutually exclusive.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    I think the homeless are our unhoused neighbors and I like Judge Dredd.
omginternets 3y ago
They serve a function other than deterrence: they remove criminals from the street. There is a certain political faction that has developed the habit of observing the effects of jail on criminals while ignoring the effect of criminals on the innocent. I think the parent is reacting to the disingenuousness of this position.
shjake 3y ago
Well be fair the overall decrease in crime rates over the last several decades seems to be somewhat correlated with increasing incarceration rates..

scotty79 3y ago

High incarceration rate might cause high crime. Especially since ex-convicts are almost banned from any work. The only thing they can do to sustain themselves is more crime. US views criminals a people who failed the society, while at these numbers it would be way more reasonable to see them as people failed by the society.