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Yup. Anyone charged with a crime would be well advised to do whatever it takes to seek council directly, as in finding a way to pay for it. Public defenders a

Yup. Anyone charged with a crime would be well advised to do whatever it takes to seek council directly, as in finding a way to pay for it. Public defenders are doing noble work. They are also denied the resources necessary to perform that work with the same zeal seen in the prosecution side of the justice system.

Slava_Propanei 3y ago
No, we are not. I’ve worked as a defense attorney. It is was terrifying to see how much leeway and how many extra chances were given to violent criminals. The DAs job is impossible.
- hgomersall 3y ago
  Maybe you should try being a defendant to actually get a balanced perspective (a good thing to try would be to get yourself arrested for something that you didn't do but is just your word against theirs). For extra experience try doing that whilst being black. For reference, I have being on the receiving end of an entirely unwarranted accusation for a trivial crime in the UK (which is often held up as being a good example of a fair system). It occupied an unbelievable amount of headspace and was hugely stressful. I'm educated, reasonably well off and white. The system felt very very powerful and unpredictable from my position and I was never even arrested (just accused, which is enough for the police to treat you as a perpetrator). If the prosecution had happened and had gone anywhere (it didn't) and I'd been convicted I would have got a small fine, but I was still far too worried that my innocence was insufficient to protect me. All the way through you're treated as though you are guilty, and the accuser is the "victim". Honestly, the only victim in the whole sorry affair was me. I can't imagine what it must feel like if you're on the receiving end of an unwarranted accusation for a more serious crime. Especially if everyone thinks you're guilty because your have priors and "look guilty".
- 93po 3y ago
  People who commit violent crimes are almost always a victim of a fucked up system themselves that led them to those actions. Putting them in prison perpetuates and worsens the cycle. It is still less harm on the whole to give them leeway and extra chances. The solution is fixing the social safety net for the poor and disadvantaged. Not throwing people in prison for trying to survive and making mistakes along the way.
  - anthony_d 3y ago
    That looks a lot like satire but I can’t quite tell. So, to clarify: if someone is clearly a violent criminal, are you really saying we should feel bad for them and assume they are a victim of “the system”? Do we drop charges? What’s the actionable plan for reducing violent crime?
    - 93po 3y ago
      > are you really saying we should feel bad for them and assume they are a victim of “the system”? Yes, absolutely. 100%. We should feel bad for people who find themselves in circumstances and life experiences that have driven them to violence. We should feel bad for sociopaths who inflict violence because the life and experience of a sociopath is objectively a sad thing. We should feel bad for non-sociopaths who were driven to desperation and extremes due to a lack of healthy coping mechanisms for stress and anger or anything else. > Do we drop charges? What’s the actionable plan for reducing violent crime? My comment isn't suggesting that dropping charges is going to fix the problem - it's the opposite. It's that we need a system of accountability that is a net-positive for society. Incarceration as-is in the US worsens the problem severely. It needs reform to be a place of actual rehabilitation and many people who need rehabilitation due to violent offenses absolutely need to be forced into doing so. But it needs to not be at the expense of their families, it needs to not further generational harm, and it needs to not harm the people being incarcerated. Harm for harm is a fucked up concept that doesn't help anyone except shallow people who crave a sense of justice, who are themselves inflicting violence too. People should leave prison in a better position than when they entered (in terms of dealing with their life better and in more healthy ways) and the opposite is happening. We're actively harming peaceful society with prisons today.
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      How about fixing the system. Why do people have such a tiny, narrow view of life?
      - akhosravian 3y ago
        What does that mean, specifically? What policy changes need to be enacted to fix the system, and how do we verify they worked?
- giantg2 3y ago
  With conviction rates being about 75% depending on jurisdiction and grading, I'd say it doesn't seem so impossible.
- ddingus 3y ago
  Well, the Defense attorneys I know differ in their opinion of public defenders. And defense in general? Necessary, unless we intend on jailing lots of people who do not deserve it. I also feel we need to break this down too. There is a big difference between felony violent criminals and the average Joe who gets caught up in a resisting or interfering charge.
- flangola7 3y ago
  This you? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33016632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33016632 Bluntly, I think you're lying.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
iudqnolq 3y ago
Not necessarily. A PD might well be much better than an affordable private counsel. It's definitely better to go private if you're rich, it depends on specifics if you aren't.
- ddingus 3y ago
  Maybe. I have not seen that in my experience. But, it is a big nation. Perhaps this varies considerably.
- ddingus 3y ago
  You know when I faced this I called around and talked to three attorneys. Your comment may be more accurate then I realized at first. One attorney I talked to was relatively inexpensive but I can tell I had a grudge against the cops and the justice system in general. They were not going to be a good pick The second attorney I talked to said for $10,000 they can make this all go away. And they wouldn't file a tort. That seems more like a formalized punishment that I choose than justice. And the last one was 2500 bucks she said I needed a trial told me why and that's the one I picked and it was a good experience overall. We filed the tort I got my money back and it was a couple of years and I came out clean. So yeah, it does depend on specifics. And you're right to say that people shouldn't rule the public defender out. Good comment.

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

No, we are not. I’ve worked as a defense attorney. It is was terrifying to see how much leeway and how many extra chances were given to violent criminals. The DAs job is impossible.

hgomersall 3y ago
Maybe you should try being a defendant to actually get a balanced perspective (a good thing to try would be to get yourself arrested for something that you didn't do but is just your word against theirs). For extra experience try doing that whilst being black. For reference, I have being on the receiving end of an entirely unwarranted accusation for a trivial crime in the UK (which is often held up as being a good example of a fair system). It occupied an unbelievable amount of headspace and was hugely stressful. I'm educated, reasonably well off and white. The system felt very very powerful and unpredictable from my position and I was never even arrested (just accused, which is enough for the police to treat you as a perpetrator). If the prosecution had happened and had gone anywhere (it didn't) and I'd been convicted I would have got a small fine, but I was still far too worried that my innocence was insufficient to protect me. All the way through you're treated as though you are guilty, and the accuser is the "victim". Honestly, the only victim in the whole sorry affair was me. I can't imagine what it must feel like if you're on the receiving end of an unwarranted accusation for a more serious crime. Especially if everyone thinks you're guilty because your have priors and "look guilty".
93po 3y ago
People who commit violent crimes are almost always a victim of a fucked up system themselves that led them to those actions. Putting them in prison perpetuates and worsens the cycle. It is still less harm on the whole to give them leeway and extra chances. The solution is fixing the social safety net for the poor and disadvantaged. Not throwing people in prison for trying to survive and making mistakes along the way.
- anthony_d 3y ago
  That looks a lot like satire but I can’t quite tell. So, to clarify: if someone is clearly a violent criminal, are you really saying we should feel bad for them and assume they are a victim of “the system”? Do we drop charges? What’s the actionable plan for reducing violent crime?
  - 93po 3y ago
    > are you really saying we should feel bad for them and assume they are a victim of “the system”? Yes, absolutely. 100%. We should feel bad for people who find themselves in circumstances and life experiences that have driven them to violence. We should feel bad for sociopaths who inflict violence because the life and experience of a sociopath is objectively a sad thing. We should feel bad for non-sociopaths who were driven to desperation and extremes due to a lack of healthy coping mechanisms for stress and anger or anything else. > Do we drop charges? What’s the actionable plan for reducing violent crime? My comment isn't suggesting that dropping charges is going to fix the problem - it's the opposite. It's that we need a system of accountability that is a net-positive for society. Incarceration as-is in the US worsens the problem severely. It needs reform to be a place of actual rehabilitation and many people who need rehabilitation due to violent offenses absolutely need to be forced into doing so. But it needs to not be at the expense of their families, it needs to not further generational harm, and it needs to not harm the people being incarcerated. Harm for harm is a fucked up concept that doesn't help anyone except shallow people who crave a sense of justice, who are themselves inflicting violence too. People should leave prison in a better position than when they entered (in terms of dealing with their life better and in more healthy ways) and the opposite is happening. We're actively harming peaceful society with prisons today.
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    How about fixing the system. Why do people have such a tiny, narrow view of life?
    - akhosravian 3y ago
      What does that mean, specifically? What policy changes need to be enacted to fix the system, and how do we verify they worked?
giantg2 3y ago
With conviction rates being about 75% depending on jurisdiction and grading, I'd say it doesn't seem so impossible.
ddingus 3y ago
Well, the Defense attorneys I know differ in their opinion of public defenders. And defense in general? Necessary, unless we intend on jailing lots of people who do not deserve it. I also feel we need to break this down too. There is a big difference between felony violent criminals and the average Joe who gets caught up in a resisting or interfering charge.
flangola7 3y ago
This you? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33016632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33016632 Bluntly, I think you're lying.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

iudqnolq 3y ago

Not necessarily. A PD might well be much better than an affordable private counsel. It's definitely better to go private if you're rich, it depends on specifics if you aren't.

ddingus 3y ago
Maybe. I have not seen that in my experience. But, it is a big nation. Perhaps this varies considerably.
ddingus 3y ago
You know when I faced this I called around and talked to three attorneys. Your comment may be more accurate then I realized at first. One attorney I talked to was relatively inexpensive but I can tell I had a grudge against the cops and the justice system in general. They were not going to be a good pick The second attorney I talked to said for $10,000 they can make this all go away. And they wouldn't file a tort. That seems more like a formalized punishment that I choose than justice. And the last one was 2500 bucks she said I needed a trial told me why and that's the one I picked and it was a good experience overall. We filed the tort I got my money back and it was a couple of years and I came out clean. So yeah, it does depend on specifics. And you're right to say that people shouldn't rule the public defender out. Good comment.