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Your dependency isn’t the problem if you have ADHD and the medication helps you. The actual problem is all the bullshit around getting the drug and the bullshi

Your dependency isn’t the problem if you have ADHD and the medication helps you. The actual problem is all the bullshit around getting the drug and the bullshit stigma around it. The fact the system treats you like a ‘crack addict’ is the problem. Could you imagine how absurd it would be if say, type 1 diabetics got treated like addicts because they depended on insulin? The system around ADHD drugs is just fucked and needs to change.

LoganDark 3y ago
The problem is that ADHD medications actually work. They work so well that they are abused by people who don't actually have ADHD. Resulting in more restrictions, even for people who do have ADHD and actually need the drug. Insulin can't be abused in this way, which probably explains why you can just go and buy it at walmart.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Insulin can be used to murder someone, and if the body is not discovered quickly, without leaving a trace
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    A lot of things can be used to murder someone. People are encouraged not to do that, though.
- rottencupcakes 3y ago
  What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Maybe some elevated cardiovascular problems across society as a whole? Maybe some psychosis in serious chronic abusers? Why don't we just do this?
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    It was widely available from ~1930 until 1970. JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      > JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems. Problems caused by drug abuse != problems caused by drug availability. Meth is neurotoxic, we know this now. So are all stimulants, to a degree. I take magnesium supplements with my ADHD meds because it depletes my brain of natural magnesium—I have had blood tests confirm this. But meth can be particularly dangerous, especially due to how addictive it is and how neurotoxic it gets when abused, compared to even the other amphetamines like dextroamphetamine. All this is not to say that it shouldn't be widely available. Just that proper, responsible usage information should also be widely available. Which it is not. If people knew how to take meth properly and responsibly, maybe there would be less cases of it getting out of control. Too bad all people have to go off of is anti-drug propaganda that says all drugs are bad. Leads to them ignoring all advice altogether, even if it could've otherwise helped them.
      - Spooky23 3y ago
        You’re going to have a curve of abuse. Availability will affect that curve. Drugs like opioids and stimulants are great in that they work well at masking lots of symptoms, but our bodies adapt to them and the need for them feeds the physical dependence. The mental abuse factors amplify as well availability. Bookies and sports betting isn’t novel. Legalized betting on smartphones is; so now billions are spent on marketing to vacuum up many billions of dollars of bets. Humans are wired the way they are wired. Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place.
        LoganDark 3y ago
        > Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place. Sure, but people likely to get addicted are sometimes also in the presence of people who would benefit from a proper drug education in order to help protect the more vulnerable. Am I saying people will stop using drugs if they stop being illegal? No way, the opposite actually. But if drug use wasn't considered indiscriminately bad, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing anyway.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Honestly I agree with you. I think drugs like this should be sold OTC because it's basically just like food. It is a substance you put into your body. Just like psychedelics. And imagine the lives that would be saved if the drug propaganda did not desensitize everyone to actual help. This is the whole reason "harm reduction" forums exist. But, you know how it is, where the government doesn't trust anyone to use substances responsibly. Man, what I would give for a "responsible enough to buy drugs OTC" license or whatever. I get dextroamphetamine on prescription, but I also really like LSD and would love to be able to buy that OTC, legally, so I'd know the supply is safe and I'm not going to jail. Although, I'm pretty sure certain drugs like heroin compromise judgement to a great degree, which makes it very difficult to use responsibly, but honestly there are more creative ways to deal with this that society just hasn't explored because of the whole "war on drugs" ridiculousness.
    - Fr0styMatt88 3y ago
      Yeah totally agree.
    - waboremo 3y ago
      The war on drugs has substantially ruined entire generations by convincing people drug abuse can be solved purely by throwing people in jail and through shame. To think it's taken until ~2021-2022 for a federal administration in the US to finally admit there needs to be better solutions in place, it's absurd! All those deaths could have been prevented.
      - TylerE 3y ago
        And also by strongly implying that ALL drug use is drug abuse.
        LoganDark 3y ago
        Yep... drugs are powerful substances that deserve to be treated with respect, but past that, it's possible to use them responsibly. The fact that some substances are just indiscriminately illegal is just... upsetting. Especially since even things like LSD are lumped into that "Schedule I" despite being... extremely safe? Given you're properly informed and prepared for the experience, of course. Only an example, but it's a particularly personal example.
  - Nursie 3y ago
    Didn't we used to? IIRC Adderall is just plain old amphetamine, and you used to be able to buy that freely OTC. Looks like it was scheduled in the US in 1971.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      > Adderall is just plain old amphetamine Adderall is a mix of 3:1 dextroamphetamine to levoamphetamine. It is not "plain old amphetamine", also known as racemic or "free-base" amphetamine (equal mix of dextro- and levo-). I can't take levoamphetamine, and need dextroamphetamine directly. Unsure if that was ever sold OTC on its own.
      - Nursie 3y ago
        By plain old amphetamine I meant structurally, rather than a specific stereoisomer mix. Though I guess I had assumed it was 100% dextroamphetamine. I think Dexedrine was sold OTC in the 50s and 60s, hard to be sure, sources I can find talk about it being popular for use by anyone and everyone, from dieting housewives to truck drivers and athletes, but don't specifically mention it being OTC or prescription.
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Charles Whitman was dependent on Dexedrine, and he packed a good supply of it on that last day of his life. Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time.
        Nursie 3y ago
        > Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time. Any sort of source to back this up? I'm not arguing for dexedrine etc to be freely available, FYI, just discussing that it used to be.
        3y ago
  - TylerE 3y ago
    The cardio effects may well be nulled out if some percentage all of users was more physically active as a result. I generally support making more stuff OTC. For instance, in many countries low dosage codeine tablets are available OTC. Similarly, given that the already have a plethora of bars, I see no harm in airports adding Valium vending machines.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    Bingo
  - jjk166 3y ago
    I think the real issue is that all it should take to get a prescription is a confirmation that you know the procedure for administering the proper dose and that you understand the expected efficacy and risks of doing so. It should be a process that could be completely handled by a kiosk. Maybe a drug won't help them, or even hurt them, but so long as they are informed they should have the right to make that decision for themselves. We let people buy peanut butter without demanding a note from a doctor saying they don't have a peanut allergy. Perhaps some things should have a traditional prescription but the burden on the government should be pretty high to prove that it's something so complicated or so dangerous that it would be catastrophic to permit direct sale to the public.
  - Auracle 3y ago
    I take Adderall for idiopathic hypersomnia. But boy does it come in handy for other things. It’s the best cold symptom medication there is. Need to drive late at night when you should be tired? Pop 5mg and you can actually drive safely for a few hours. It’s a shame we have it locked away. That said, it’s dangerous to think other people would act like you. People would definitely abuse it (more than they already do). I come down on your idea like I do in most drug legalization questions. Conceptually I think we should be able to do whatever the hell we want to our bodies. Realistically I don’t know if that works for society.
- noarchy 3y ago
  Insulin is abused by some bodybuilders as yet another gimmick in the quest for more size. There are likely other such niche uses/abuses, but that's one that came to mind.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Yeah but it's not really addictive or anything. Nobody really falls into an insulin use disorder.
    - kalium-xyz 3y ago
      It for sure can create dependency.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        So can gluten. I know (personally) at least one person where gluten acts as an opioid in their body. Don't remember the exact details but they get high from it and also get opioid withdrawals if they stop eating gluten. Sounds like an incredibly miserable way to live, honestly.
        sph 3y ago
        I don't get high off gluten, but I do not tolerate it yet crave it, along with cheese, which contains casein that has the same opioid effect. My favourite junk food, and one that puts me KO for 3 days is a double cheese pizza. Makes me depressed and despondent, bloated and my ADHD meds stop being effective (but my usual dose is quite low on purpose). But that's because of my physiology, the opioid effect is in the strong craving, and how lovely the first bite is, and how I hate myself after the first bite, for having succumbed to its allure once again. Gluten and casein are under-researched. The fact that there is a so called "gluten sensitivity" fad is not a shared hallucination, but some effect we haven't identified or understood yet.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  I fucking hate this explanation. The line between legitimate use and abuse is EXTREMELY thin.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    You hate the explanation that... ADHD medications are controlled substances because they are abusable?? Aren't you the one who's been comparing ADHD treatment to crack addiction all throughout this comments section?
    - sph 3y ago
      Some people just hate that ADHD people have a better quality of life with stimulant meds, and want to believe they're just addicts. There is no reasoning with that kind of people. I just hate they keep the stigma around ADHD and its very effective medication alive so we keep being branded as druggies.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        Well, I am sort of a druggie, all things considered. Amphetamines were my gateway drug, they changed my entire perspective on drugs in general. But I think it's okay to be addicted. Just like I am addicted to eating food when I am hungry, or using a heavy weighted blanket when I sleep (~45lbs). These are all things that I greatly enjoy and do whenever possible. And I think it's okay to enjoy things in life. I also think it's okay to enjoy drugs in life. Because while my meds finally let me relax and stop getting so painfully bored, they don't detract from my life, don't cause any adverse side effects (besides urinary retention, which is basically harmless), and don't even cause any adverse withdrawal symptoms. I even take them around every 3 days now because sleeping for 15 hours in between feels nice. I don't have any obligations, so why take them every day if I can enjoy some really nice and comfy sleep in between? I don't get enough sleep on my meds anyway, 7 hours is the usual max I can get every night, so catching up is probably healthy too. Not to mention that my meds cause my preferences to flip a bit; I prefer entertainment while off meds, and productivity while on meds, and I want to keep both sides in my life. I don't think anyone could make a convincing case that this is a bad thing. I am enjoying my life right now, and not harming myself or others, so~
- channel_t 3y ago
  I honestly have a pretty strong hunch that a high percentage of the people out there abusing the drug do have ADHD but are undiagnosed and self-medicating, technically needing it as much as anyone else. The difference is that not seeking treatment for things leads people down the road of substance abuse. I think that, more often than not, the situation tends to work out differently for people when approached from a clinical angle.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Oh, I've absolutely heard of people with undiagnosed ADHD who had to take meth or something because their doctor would not help them. It's just that without the help of a medical professional and prescription, it can pretty quickly spiral out of control based on the person's subjective judgement, which is notably impaired when euphoria-inducing drugs are involved (of which meth is a particularly notable example), and said spiralling becomes more dangerous when the drugs are easily neurotoxic (of which meth is also a particularly notable example). Not to say responsible people don't exist, but rather that without a framework to support them, it's all their own personal responsibility. And there's also preliminary studies showing meth being somewhat neuroprotective at low doses, so if someone is using it purely for productivity, and taking the right supplements, it's possible that they could avoid damaging themselves too much. But this is all theoretical and basically I don't fully believe in self-medicating for an ADHD case that you could be getting a real prescription for. I do believe in self-medicating using psychedelics and the like because there's no prescription treatment for that (yet), but as soon as you're allowed to ask a medical professional to help, I think you should. FWIW even once psilocybin clinics become a thing, I'm still going to be taking LSD at home, because home has my toys and my friends, and clinics have neither. But if one day I can be prescribed LSD to take home and use on my own terms, I'd be glad to ask a professional for advice on it, and get a prescription. Just has to, you know, be legal first.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  Oh, but you missed the really big problem. Guess who's bad at navigating arbitrary restrictions? If you said "people with ADHD," you win the prize.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    As someone with ADHD that is absolutely correct. I could not properly pursue anything until I had basically decided that trying to find medication was my last resort before suicide.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      Man, you know, I've been known to joke about how I have to take medication to remember to take my medication, but it sure as hell beats suicide. Glad you were able to push through and make it work.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      Holy crap, this is exactly how I felt. Contemplating suicide because of how overwhelming everything had become. It might still be easier to get MAID (medically assisted suicide) here in Canada than Adderall. What a shitshow
      - Paul-Craft 3y ago
        > It might still be easier to get MAID (medically assisted suicide) here in Canada than Adderall. What a shitshow Is there anything a random USAian could legally do to help your situation? I don't have a ton of financial resources, but if having someone in your corner helps, I might be able to do that for you.
        pcthrowaway 3y ago
        Sorry, I should have clarified that like the poster above me, I finally got Adderall and things have improved a fair bit! In another comment here I mentioned the process took about 2 years for me (even though I was first diagnosed with ADHD in the U.S. in 1994 or so) I really appreciate the offer though, very kind of you
conductr 3y ago
I know plenty of people buying and selling adderall on the streets, and it’s for recreational purposes. I don’t think insulin quite has that going against it.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Well, insulin doesn't have that going against it because you can just buy it from Walmart. It doesn't require any people on the street. But the recreational use thing is huge indeed—the fact that adderall is so potent, desirable and dangerous is what earned it a spot on Schedule II. The reason why people are "treated like addicts" is because people think all addicts are the same. There are different reasons to be addicted to a substance, and not all of them are bad. Say, if the substance legitimately helps you by making your brain function properly, as does ADHD treatment, it should be okay to be addicted. Who wouldn't be addicted to feeling like their brain is finally working properly? But being addicted to a substance just because it feels good, with no regard for your personal safety or health (i.e. overdosing constantly) is reckless and dangerous, and this is what people think of when they think "addict". This is also, unfortunately, what comes to mind whenever one sees someone enjoying their ADHD medication. They compare it to the enjoyment of someone who is well and truly fucking themselves with some neurotoxic substance like meth or cocaine—short-lived euphoria that goes away once the drug stops manufacturing good feelings for them, not true satisfaction with their self. It's sad, really. Though I'm not surprised that people can't see the nuance.
andersentobias 3y ago
I don't think type 1 diabetes meds are considered overprescribed _anywhere_. ADHD meds definitely are. Even reputable doctors say they are overprescribed. How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? ADHD exists, but to say that there's something wrong with "the system" just because 100% of people in society don't take it as a serious diagnosis is a big stretch. Another big stretch is comparing ADHD with type 1 diabetes. Come on...
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? It's complicated. I think a decent percentage could be helped by going to the gym, because I think the fact that SNRIs help so many people shows that norepinephrine can be the main issue in some cases, and exercise should help with that. But then there are the cases that can only be helped by stimulants that are DRIs (like me, with dextroamphetamine), and most NRIs actually make things worse (e.g. my body can't handle the levoamphetamine in adderall). I would love to know the distribution here, honestly. As for the modern lifestyle, I think the modern tech world is trying to exploit ADHD-like behaviors in everyone. The whole thing about social media trying to maximize dopamine and instant gratification and endless scrolling and etc. is a real thing that happens to try to take advantage of even people who don't have ADHD... but it hits people with ADHD the hardest, because due to their disorder, deviously-crafted social media can actually overshadow the rest of their life. I'm almost definitely addicted to chatting on Discord for example, ever since the platform first came out, but mainly because it facilitates chatting with my closest friends. I pick a DM and talk to people, and it's very direct, and I don't feel manipulated at all. But that's how it gets you; I know the majority of my time is spent chatting, and the majority of my time procrastinating is spent chatting. The only question is whether my decision is truly informed or not. I think it is.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? Structural differences in brain chemistry don't get fixed by going to the gym. People with untreated ADHD are 3x more likely to be in a car accident. Going to the gym won't fix that. 50% of people with untreated ADHD have issues with substance abuse. 50%. Going to the gym won't help with that. Divorce rates for people with ADHD are up to 2x population averages, a few hours a week lifting weights won't help with that. > How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? Risk factors for developing ADHD are heavily linked to exposure to the industrial pollutants that are a result from modern society. It isn't the largest factor, but it is a contributing one. That is going to be the only "modern lifestyle" link you find. People with ADHD don't just have problems sitting in a chair (that tends to go away as people age anyway), ADHD impacts emotional regulation, the ability to perceive time, and basically all other aspects of executive function. ADHD isn't just "can't focus", that is just the most obvious symptom. ADHD is, aside from being horribly misnamed, a disorder of the executing functioning part of the brain that is responsible for controlling large swaths of higher order brain functions. To tl;dr it, having ADHD fucks with everything.
_heimdall 3y ago
I don't have any recent first hand experience with Adderall use, are we honestly at a point where those taking it are treated as crack addicts? My understanding has always been that plenty of people use it, and if anything that is over prescribed. What exactly have you seen that's so bad it's being treated similar to a schedule 2 narcotic?
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  Adderall is a schedule 2 drug.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Well that I really should have fact checked first, could have sworn it was schedule 3! Societally aive never noticed adderall having the same stigma as crack, but I gotta say I'm pretty surprised it's schedule 2 (or 2N, I don't see any details on what the N distinction means). Guess the question is whether a person really is at as high a risk for dependence when on Adderall vs. opiods and other schedule 2s.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      If you want to see how people on ADHD stimulants get treated by doctors, read this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... It's a bit of a long read, but it's very good. The author is a psychiatrist who deals with this sort of thing frequently. I can't really comment on the relative risk of dependence for Adderall vs opioids, except from my personal experience. A real addict probably wouldn't even (literally) get out of bed in order to take my daily dose of Adderall (25 mg XR). I've been taking it for almost 10 years now, and in that time, I've had one dosage increase, from 20 to 25 mg. I've accidentally taken it twice in a day, and I can say with certainty that I do not enjoy the experience when that happens. I honestly can't fathom how anyone would want to take the kinds of doses that addicts take. It's not a fun drug at all, as far as I can tell. If I didn't have to take it to function somewhat normally, I wouldn't take it at all.

LoganDark 3y ago

The problem is that ADHD medications actually work. They work so well that they are abused by people who don't actually have ADHD. Resulting in more restrictions, even for people who do have ADHD and actually need the drug. Insulin can't be abused in this way, which probably explains why you can just go and buy it at walmart.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
Insulin can be used to murder someone, and if the body is not discovered quickly, without leaving a trace
- LoganDark 3y ago
  A lot of things can be used to murder someone. People are encouraged not to do that, though.
rottencupcakes 3y ago
What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Maybe some elevated cardiovascular problems across society as a whole? Maybe some psychosis in serious chronic abusers? Why don't we just do this?
- Spooky23 3y ago
  It was widely available from ~1930 until 1970. JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > JFK was regularly using meth. It created a lot of problems. Problems caused by drug abuse != problems caused by drug availability. Meth is neurotoxic, we know this now. So are all stimulants, to a degree. I take magnesium supplements with my ADHD meds because it depletes my brain of natural magnesium—I have had blood tests confirm this. But meth can be particularly dangerous, especially due to how addictive it is and how neurotoxic it gets when abused, compared to even the other amphetamines like dextroamphetamine. All this is not to say that it shouldn't be widely available. Just that proper, responsible usage information should also be widely available. Which it is not. If people knew how to take meth properly and responsibly, maybe there would be less cases of it getting out of control. Too bad all people have to go off of is anti-drug propaganda that says all drugs are bad. Leads to them ignoring all advice altogether, even if it could've otherwise helped them.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      You’re going to have a curve of abuse. Availability will affect that curve. Drugs like opioids and stimulants are great in that they work well at masking lots of symptoms, but our bodies adapt to them and the need for them feeds the physical dependence. The mental abuse factors amplify as well availability. Bookies and sports betting isn’t novel. Legalized betting on smartphones is; so now billions are spent on marketing to vacuum up many billions of dollars of bets. Humans are wired the way they are wired. Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        > Education about risk only benefits people capable of managing the risk - not the people likely to get addicted in the first place. Sure, but people likely to get addicted are sometimes also in the presence of people who would benefit from a proper drug education in order to help protect the more vulnerable. Am I saying people will stop using drugs if they stop being illegal? No way, the opposite actually. But if drug use wasn't considered indiscriminately bad, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing anyway.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > What would be the worst thing that happened to society if we just manufactured adderall and sold it OTC? Honestly I agree with you. I think drugs like this should be sold OTC because it's basically just like food. It is a substance you put into your body. Just like psychedelics. And imagine the lives that would be saved if the drug propaganda did not desensitize everyone to actual help. This is the whole reason "harm reduction" forums exist. But, you know how it is, where the government doesn't trust anyone to use substances responsibly. Man, what I would give for a "responsible enough to buy drugs OTC" license or whatever. I get dextroamphetamine on prescription, but I also really like LSD and would love to be able to buy that OTC, legally, so I'd know the supply is safe and I'm not going to jail. Although, I'm pretty sure certain drugs like heroin compromise judgement to a great degree, which makes it very difficult to use responsibly, but honestly there are more creative ways to deal with this that society just hasn't explored because of the whole "war on drugs" ridiculousness.
  - Fr0styMatt88 3y ago
    Yeah totally agree.
  - waboremo 3y ago
    The war on drugs has substantially ruined entire generations by convincing people drug abuse can be solved purely by throwing people in jail and through shame. To think it's taken until ~2021-2022 for a federal administration in the US to finally admit there needs to be better solutions in place, it's absurd! All those deaths could have been prevented.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      And also by strongly implying that ALL drug use is drug abuse.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        Yep... drugs are powerful substances that deserve to be treated with respect, but past that, it's possible to use them responsibly. The fact that some substances are just indiscriminately illegal is just... upsetting. Especially since even things like LSD are lumped into that "Schedule I" despite being... extremely safe? Given you're properly informed and prepared for the experience, of course. Only an example, but it's a particularly personal example.
- Nursie 3y ago
  Didn't we used to? IIRC Adderall is just plain old amphetamine, and you used to be able to buy that freely OTC. Looks like it was scheduled in the US in 1971.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > Adderall is just plain old amphetamine Adderall is a mix of 3:1 dextroamphetamine to levoamphetamine. It is not "plain old amphetamine", also known as racemic or "free-base" amphetamine (equal mix of dextro- and levo-). I can't take levoamphetamine, and need dextroamphetamine directly. Unsure if that was ever sold OTC on its own.
    - Nursie 3y ago
      By plain old amphetamine I meant structurally, rather than a specific stereoisomer mix. Though I guess I had assumed it was 100% dextroamphetamine. I think Dexedrine was sold OTC in the 50s and 60s, hard to be sure, sources I can find talk about it being popular for use by anyone and everyone, from dieting housewives to truck drivers and athletes, but don't specifically mention it being OTC or prescription.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Charles Whitman was dependent on Dexedrine, and he packed a good supply of it on that last day of his life. Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time.
        Nursie 3y ago
        > Dexedrine and other psychotropic pharmaceuticals have figured prominently in most mass shootings since that time. Any sort of source to back this up? I'm not arguing for dexedrine etc to be freely available, FYI, just discussing that it used to be.
        3y ago
- TylerE 3y ago
  The cardio effects may well be nulled out if some percentage all of users was more physically active as a result. I generally support making more stuff OTC. For instance, in many countries low dosage codeine tablets are available OTC. Similarly, given that the already have a plethora of bars, I see no harm in airports adding Valium vending machines.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  Bingo
- jjk166 3y ago
  I think the real issue is that all it should take to get a prescription is a confirmation that you know the procedure for administering the proper dose and that you understand the expected efficacy and risks of doing so. It should be a process that could be completely handled by a kiosk. Maybe a drug won't help them, or even hurt them, but so long as they are informed they should have the right to make that decision for themselves. We let people buy peanut butter without demanding a note from a doctor saying they don't have a peanut allergy. Perhaps some things should have a traditional prescription but the burden on the government should be pretty high to prove that it's something so complicated or so dangerous that it would be catastrophic to permit direct sale to the public.
- Auracle 3y ago
  I take Adderall for idiopathic hypersomnia. But boy does it come in handy for other things. It’s the best cold symptom medication there is. Need to drive late at night when you should be tired? Pop 5mg and you can actually drive safely for a few hours. It’s a shame we have it locked away. That said, it’s dangerous to think other people would act like you. People would definitely abuse it (more than they already do). I come down on your idea like I do in most drug legalization questions. Conceptually I think we should be able to do whatever the hell we want to our bodies. Realistically I don’t know if that works for society.
noarchy 3y ago
Insulin is abused by some bodybuilders as yet another gimmick in the quest for more size. There are likely other such niche uses/abuses, but that's one that came to mind.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Yeah but it's not really addictive or anything. Nobody really falls into an insulin use disorder.
  - kalium-xyz 3y ago
    It for sure can create dependency.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      So can gluten. I know (personally) at least one person where gluten acts as an opioid in their body. Don't remember the exact details but they get high from it and also get opioid withdrawals if they stop eating gluten. Sounds like an incredibly miserable way to live, honestly.
      - sph 3y ago
        I don't get high off gluten, but I do not tolerate it yet crave it, along with cheese, which contains casein that has the same opioid effect. My favourite junk food, and one that puts me KO for 3 days is a double cheese pizza. Makes me depressed and despondent, bloated and my ADHD meds stop being effective (but my usual dose is quite low on purpose). But that's because of my physiology, the opioid effect is in the strong craving, and how lovely the first bite is, and how I hate myself after the first bite, for having succumbed to its allure once again. Gluten and casein are under-researched. The fact that there is a so called "gluten sensitivity" fad is not a shared hallucination, but some effect we haven't identified or understood yet.
whalesalad 3y ago
I fucking hate this explanation. The line between legitimate use and abuse is EXTREMELY thin.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  You hate the explanation that... ADHD medications are controlled substances because they are abusable?? Aren't you the one who's been comparing ADHD treatment to crack addiction all throughout this comments section?
  - sph 3y ago
    Some people just hate that ADHD people have a better quality of life with stimulant meds, and want to believe they're just addicts. There is no reasoning with that kind of people. I just hate they keep the stigma around ADHD and its very effective medication alive so we keep being branded as druggies.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      Well, I am sort of a druggie, all things considered. Amphetamines were my gateway drug, they changed my entire perspective on drugs in general. But I think it's okay to be addicted. Just like I am addicted to eating food when I am hungry, or using a heavy weighted blanket when I sleep (~45lbs). These are all things that I greatly enjoy and do whenever possible. And I think it's okay to enjoy things in life. I also think it's okay to enjoy drugs in life. Because while my meds finally let me relax and stop getting so painfully bored, they don't detract from my life, don't cause any adverse side effects (besides urinary retention, which is basically harmless), and don't even cause any adverse withdrawal symptoms. I even take them around every 3 days now because sleeping for 15 hours in between feels nice. I don't have any obligations, so why take them every day if I can enjoy some really nice and comfy sleep in between? I don't get enough sleep on my meds anyway, 7 hours is the usual max I can get every night, so catching up is probably healthy too. Not to mention that my meds cause my preferences to flip a bit; I prefer entertainment while off meds, and productivity while on meds, and I want to keep both sides in my life. I don't think anyone could make a convincing case that this is a bad thing. I am enjoying my life right now, and not harming myself or others, so~
channel_t 3y ago
I honestly have a pretty strong hunch that a high percentage of the people out there abusing the drug do have ADHD but are undiagnosed and self-medicating, technically needing it as much as anyone else. The difference is that not seeking treatment for things leads people down the road of substance abuse. I think that, more often than not, the situation tends to work out differently for people when approached from a clinical angle.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Oh, I've absolutely heard of people with undiagnosed ADHD who had to take meth or something because their doctor would not help them. It's just that without the help of a medical professional and prescription, it can pretty quickly spiral out of control based on the person's subjective judgement, which is notably impaired when euphoria-inducing drugs are involved (of which meth is a particularly notable example), and said spiralling becomes more dangerous when the drugs are easily neurotoxic (of which meth is also a particularly notable example). Not to say responsible people don't exist, but rather that without a framework to support them, it's all their own personal responsibility. And there's also preliminary studies showing meth being somewhat neuroprotective at low doses, so if someone is using it purely for productivity, and taking the right supplements, it's possible that they could avoid damaging themselves too much. But this is all theoretical and basically I don't fully believe in self-medicating for an ADHD case that you could be getting a real prescription for. I do believe in self-medicating using psychedelics and the like because there's no prescription treatment for that (yet), but as soon as you're allowed to ask a medical professional to help, I think you should. FWIW even once psilocybin clinics become a thing, I'm still going to be taking LSD at home, because home has my toys and my friends, and clinics have neither. But if one day I can be prescribed LSD to take home and use on my own terms, I'd be glad to ask a professional for advice on it, and get a prescription. Just has to, you know, be legal first.
Paul-Craft 3y ago
Oh, but you missed the really big problem. Guess who's bad at navigating arbitrary restrictions? If you said "people with ADHD," you win the prize.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  As someone with ADHD that is absolutely correct. I could not properly pursue anything until I had basically decided that trying to find medication was my last resort before suicide.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    Man, you know, I've been known to joke about how I have to take medication to remember to take my medication, but it sure as hell beats suicide. Glad you were able to push through and make it work.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    Holy crap, this is exactly how I felt. Contemplating suicide because of how overwhelming everything had become. It might still be easier to get MAID (medically assisted suicide) here in Canada than Adderall. What a shitshow
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      > It might still be easier to get MAID (medically assisted suicide) here in Canada than Adderall. What a shitshow Is there anything a random USAian could legally do to help your situation? I don't have a ton of financial resources, but if having someone in your corner helps, I might be able to do that for you.
      - pcthrowaway 3y ago
        Sorry, I should have clarified that like the poster above me, I finally got Adderall and things have improved a fair bit! In another comment here I mentioned the process took about 2 years for me (even though I was first diagnosed with ADHD in the U.S. in 1994 or so) I really appreciate the offer though, very kind of you

conductr 3y ago

I know plenty of people buying and selling adderall on the streets, and it’s for recreational purposes. I don’t think insulin quite has that going against it.

LoganDark 3y ago
Well, insulin doesn't have that going against it because you can just buy it from Walmart. It doesn't require any people on the street. But the recreational use thing is huge indeed—the fact that adderall is so potent, desirable and dangerous is what earned it a spot on Schedule II. The reason why people are "treated like addicts" is because people think all addicts are the same. There are different reasons to be addicted to a substance, and not all of them are bad. Say, if the substance legitimately helps you by making your brain function properly, as does ADHD treatment, it should be okay to be addicted. Who wouldn't be addicted to feeling like their brain is finally working properly? But being addicted to a substance just because it feels good, with no regard for your personal safety or health (i.e. overdosing constantly) is reckless and dangerous, and this is what people think of when they think "addict". This is also, unfortunately, what comes to mind whenever one sees someone enjoying their ADHD medication. They compare it to the enjoyment of someone who is well and truly fucking themselves with some neurotoxic substance like meth or cocaine—short-lived euphoria that goes away once the drug stops manufacturing good feelings for them, not true satisfaction with their self. It's sad, really. Though I'm not surprised that people can't see the nuance.

andersentobias 3y ago

I don't think type 1 diabetes meds are considered overprescribed _anywhere_. ADHD meds definitely are. Even reputable doctors say they are overprescribed. How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? ADHD exists, but to say that there's something wrong with "the system" just because 100% of people in society don't take it as a serious diagnosis is a big stretch. Another big stretch is comparing ADHD with type 1 diabetes. Come on...

LoganDark 3y ago
> How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? It's complicated. I think a decent percentage could be helped by going to the gym, because I think the fact that SNRIs help so many people shows that norepinephrine can be the main issue in some cases, and exercise should help with that. But then there are the cases that can only be helped by stimulants that are DRIs (like me, with dextroamphetamine), and most NRIs actually make things worse (e.g. my body can't handle the levoamphetamine in adderall). I would love to know the distribution here, honestly. As for the modern lifestyle, I think the modern tech world is trying to exploit ADHD-like behaviors in everyone. The whole thing about social media trying to maximize dopamine and instant gratification and endless scrolling and etc. is a real thing that happens to try to take advantage of even people who don't have ADHD... but it hits people with ADHD the hardest, because due to their disorder, deviously-crafted social media can actually overshadow the rest of their life. I'm almost definitely addicted to chatting on Discord for example, ever since the platform first came out, but mainly because it facilitates chatting with my closest friends. I pick a DM and talk to people, and it's very direct, and I don't feel manipulated at all. But that's how it gets you; I know the majority of my time is spent chatting, and the majority of my time procrastinating is spent chatting. The only question is whether my decision is truly informed or not. I think it is.
com2kid 3y ago
> How large % of the ADHD population could be fixed environmentally, e.g. by just going to the damn gym? How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? Structural differences in brain chemistry don't get fixed by going to the gym. People with untreated ADHD are 3x more likely to be in a car accident. Going to the gym won't fix that. 50% of people with untreated ADHD have issues with substance abuse. 50%. Going to the gym won't help with that. Divorce rates for people with ADHD are up to 2x population averages, a few hours a week lifting weights won't help with that. > How much can be attributed to our modern lifestyles? Risk factors for developing ADHD are heavily linked to exposure to the industrial pollutants that are a result from modern society. It isn't the largest factor, but it is a contributing one. That is going to be the only "modern lifestyle" link you find. People with ADHD don't just have problems sitting in a chair (that tends to go away as people age anyway), ADHD impacts emotional regulation, the ability to perceive time, and basically all other aspects of executive function. ADHD isn't just "can't focus", that is just the most obvious symptom. ADHD is, aside from being horribly misnamed, a disorder of the executing functioning part of the brain that is responsible for controlling large swaths of higher order brain functions. To tl;dr it, having ADHD fucks with everything.

_heimdall 3y ago

I don't have any recent first hand experience with Adderall use, are we honestly at a point where those taking it are treated as crack addicts? My understanding has always been that plenty of people use it, and if anything that is over prescribed. What exactly have you seen that's so bad it's being treated similar to a schedule 2 narcotic?

Paul-Craft 3y ago
Adderall is a schedule 2 drug.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Well that I really should have fact checked first, could have sworn it was schedule 3! Societally aive never noticed adderall having the same stigma as crack, but I gotta say I'm pretty surprised it's schedule 2 (or 2N, I don't see any details on what the N distinction means). Guess the question is whether a person really is at as high a risk for dependence when on Adderall vs. opiods and other schedule 2s.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    If you want to see how people on ADHD stimulants get treated by doctors, read this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... It's a bit of a long read, but it's very good. The author is a psychiatrist who deals with this sort of thing frequently. I can't really comment on the relative risk of dependence for Adderall vs opioids, except from my personal experience. A real addict probably wouldn't even (literally) get out of bed in order to take my daily dose of Adderall (25 mg XR). I've been taking it for almost 10 years now, and in that time, I've had one dosage increase, from 20 to 25 mg. I've accidentally taken it twice in a day, and I can say with certainty that I do not enjoy the experience when that happens. I honestly can't fathom how anyone would want to take the kinds of doses that addicts take. It's not a fun drug at all, as far as I can tell. If I didn't have to take it to function somewhat normally, I wouldn't take it at all.