8 ms·

What happened after I left my software engineering career (2022)

148 points by luu 3y ago

sublinear 3y ago
> It turns out that my burnout wasn’t just triggered by a tech job. After reading that I'm pretty sure almost none of it was from a tech job apart from the mild stress that comes from having any job at all.
- Turskarama 3y ago
  The problem with "Tech Jobs" has nothing to do with tech itself and everything to do with culture. I work a tech job (in Australia though) and work strictly 9-5, I don't even look at emails or team chats outside of work hours. As a result I have had none of the burnout issues which are rampant in the tech industry. Touching computers is not the problem.
  - treeman79 3y ago
    Last few years it’s been harder in tech to find jobs where people are obsessed with race/gender. Even trying to stay out it can be a major challenge.
    - cr__ 3y ago
      ???
  - toadi 3y ago
    I think it is an American culture thing. In Europe I worked in tech for at least 20 years now. Take 15 public holidays and 20 to 30 paid vacation holidays, affordable health care and education and yes I make less money then my American counterparts. But I never had "that" kind of stress. There is always some stress...
  - archsurface 3y ago
    For how many years?
    - Turskarama 3y ago
      8 years in now.
    - JenrHywy 3y ago
      Not the OP, but I've been in tech in Australia for over 20 years. When I was young and stupid I worked 80hr weeks, 24/7 on-call for a couple of years and it destroyed me. After that it has been 40hr weeks unless I feel like working longer.
  - beauzero 3y ago
    It was me. I finally quit the 5 year cycle and took a long term...hopefully to retirement job...in state government doing tech. Realized I still loved tech and there are still a few jobs that you can work for the better good and get paid. I still believe in the internet of the 90's and that it can be a thing for good. I get to get up everyday and try to spend my fellow persons' tax payer money the best I can. Maybe on a good day actually do some good for less advantaged people.
  - AHOHA 3y ago
    It’s never a tech jobs or tech itself, it’s either the two: insufferable toxic peers/managers, or the culture as you said in ”work hard, party hard” except.. you never party hard and you are exploited to the core.
  - strken 3y ago
    Anecdotally I left a high-pressure high-pay tech job in the US to come back to Australia and work a 9-to-5-except-for-oncall job. I ended up losing about 20kg and regaining a lot of lost productivity. This was ironic, because I was actively trying to be less productive, but cutting out the bullshit leaves you with nothing but actual work.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    Oh, I do believe tech itself is also a factor. From the physical conditions (sitting, screens - and the ridiculous office spaces) to the intellectual churn (constantly having to learn, and feign excitement about new technologies that, paradoxically, end up making everything buggier, more complex and often slower in real terms, despite vast improvements in the underlying platforms). But yes, by and large it's the "culture", the ideology - and the rampant pettiness and toxicity throughout the people stack.
  - dbetteridge 3y ago
    This might be why i've never understood the Burnout that seems to be rife in the Tech industry, is it USA centric? As an Australian developer, I am fortunate to receive 25 days of annual leave along with 10 public holidays, and I make sure to use every single one of them. Whether it's for international travel or exploring different parts of Australia, I prioritise spending time outdoors, camping, and hiking for a few days. During these periods, I am disconnected from screens and the internet. In fact, even if I wanted to be online, there is no signal in the majority of national parks or campgrounds which is a great bonus..
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Clearly there are some red flags, like being terrified of Covid. This person is likely high in neuroticism.
Trufa 3y ago
This is not quite related to the article but it struck a chord. I started losing weight around a year and a half ago. I lost around 68kg, or 149 pounds. I’ve been surfing almost every day for a year now. I also took some time off work and almost no social media use. It’s pretty amazing how one feels like the “typical” obese programmer with a stressful job and how you can actually feel. If you’re financially stable enough, I can’t recommend enough to take some time off and take care of yourself, you probably don’t know how bad it feels right now and you probably don’t know how good you can feel if you’re anything like me. I basically haven’t touched a computer since December, and I’m not sure how it will be to go back, I miss some things about programming and I’m considering different challenges to keep that part of my brain active but that allows me to keep surfing daily. Don’t be afraid of the other side is my only point, it’s truly life and perspective changing. Edit: btw, if anyone has any ideas of how to work very few hours a week as a pretty decent full stack web dev without too high of a financial aspirations, I’m all ears, people seem too look for all or nothing employees only.
- gotorazor 3y ago
  @Trufa - What are you typing this reply on?
  - Trufa 3y ago
    My phone :)
    - culi 3y ago
      If I ever got out of tech, HN would be one of the first things I'd like to kick tbh haha. What keeps you coming back? I don't use social media either but this often feels worse in some ways
      - bheadmaster 3y ago
        Not him, but I find HN a good tradeoff between Reddit and 4chan. There are no powerhungry mods that'd ban you without an explanation, but you can still have a conversation without being called homophobic names. The hivemind exists, but the opposition is strong enough that even controversial voices can be heard as long as they are well-argumented.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Glench 3y ago
Good to see fellow tech quitters, although I'm sorry to hear about the author's health issues, and interested that her journey led her back to tech. I quit tech to become a therapist! http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/ http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/
- maxverse 3y ago
  And you're both Recursers :)
- sjamaan 3y ago
  I'm also considering a switch but struggle to figure out how to bridge the gap financially. How did you do it? I assume you didn't have a huge list of clients right out the gate.
  - Glench 3y ago
    I had some money saved up and also worked part-time contract jobs in tech while in school. I went to school full-time but my school also had a part-time program that would have made it easier to balance everything. Feel free to reach out if you want to chat! Happy to connect
    - sjamaan 3y ago
      I sent you an e-mail
- oofnik 3y ago
  Thank you for writing and sharing this.
user_named 3y ago
Tech jobs aren't worse than other jobs. They're better than lots of jobs
- Clubber 3y ago
  The pay is better, but they can be pretty hard on you mentally. The more cushion you have can really help how it affects you though. It really depends on the environment. I've worked way longer than I should have at soul sucking companies.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- PeterWhittaker 3y ago
  To echo another comment, and expand, yes, and no: humans are built for steady physical activity and occasional mental. Tech demands often excessive and sustained mental and often, unless the worker is disciplined or otherwise inclined, less physical. So tech completely inverts what millions of years of evolution produced. Add to that the “we don’t talk about feelings” thing so common in our societies, for members of a species descended from social, group animals whose others descendants spend much time chatting and grooming and otherwise interacting with one another without stress, and you have burnout, a blanket term for something we are not built to handle well.
dec0dedab0de 3y ago
I met the author around 10 years ago at the Philly python user group. I remember seeing her switching jobs, rising through the ranks, and going from not knowing what she was talking about to giving presentations in a very short time. At the time I said that she was going to be an absolute star or burn herself out sooner than later. That said, I feel the same way and haven't accomplished as much. So maybe assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice
- j_crick 3y ago
  > assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice I think it should. I also think that the whole self care stuff, mindfulness etc included, should also be based not around helping you to cope with your pressure, but maximizing personal returns and avoiding cumulative stress in the first place. I don’t know what that would mean in practice specifically, but I definitely wish I encountered the message about prioritizing yourself over your mission more often in the media and in attitudes of people (unless we’re talking about extremes like special forces etc). “You don’t get to your destination by breaking your car” sort of thing.
crtified 3y ago
Sometimes - perhaps even often - the victims of burnout have been working (only just!) within their means, until external factors bring additional layers of pressure, causing everything to crash down. The closer to-the-edge that we work, the less tolerance we have for these factors. We need to consider the headroom needed to weather life's (and the world's) ups and downs. We know that sprinting during a marathon comes at a cost, but the sentiment is less often applied to mental and career long hauls.
- haswell 3y ago
  There’s a lot of truth in this comment. I left my job last year to go on sabbatical because of burnout. Only after I left did it fully hit me how major a factor the challenges in my personal life had become, and how impossible it had been to give myself space to heal from what had been happening while still working a high stress PM job. A long term relationship on the rocks, nurtured through COVID only to end anyway. The passing of a grandparent, and another grandparent, and a dear pet. A car accident (not my fault), and on the list goes. I’m in a much better place now, but when I was in the middle of these things, my brain tried to convince me I just wasn’t handling the stress at work. It told me I should be able to keep my personal and work lives separate. In retrospect this was all nonsense, but it’s hard to see until you’re able to catch your breath. Take a break.
- zacharycohn 3y ago
  The "closer-to-the-edge we work" metaphor just blew my mind and helped me recontextualize so much about some of my struggles for the last few years. Truly, thank you.
black_13 3y ago
[dead]
nunobrito 3y ago
OP, seems you are very influenced by mass media. My unrequested personal advice: turn-off the TV and fast-paced social media. Improved my life quality by miles. Nowadays only listen to radio and read things that matter to me in education or for entertainment. Fast food media is great for dopamine shots at the beginning but toxic for most humans on the long run.
resolutebat 3y ago
> then it emerged: a leadership role in product engineering. So apparently the answer to "what happens after I left my SWE career" is "back to SWE".
timwaagh 3y ago
Burnout is such a luxury disease. I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out. Rather you will try to find other things to make some more money, because you need the money. Is that my yealousy talking? Perhaps but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
- newshorts 3y ago
  To some extent I agree. As a parent of two children under 4, I am exhausted. Given my current obligations though, I’m compelled to keep going. It’s 3:30am, I have a stomach bug and I’m about to give up on sleep for now and get some work done. I’ll do this because it’s necessary to maintain a competitive productivity level with my peers. Burnout is a luxury I can’t afford right now.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  hierarchy of needs once you escape from the daily struggle of survival your needs also changes
- awesomeMilou 3y ago
  > I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out. Burnout is a symptom of overworking, which can happen even outside salaried work environments. It's a common thing where I live, where you're expected to do undocumented overtime until you have completed your work in the eyes of your employer. It's certainly illegal, but rarely ends up in court.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
I have similar issues, burnt out, health issues, would love to quit but I know if I quit I won't be able to find another job. Being good enough to do the job is no longer good enough to get the job.
hintymad 3y ago
Any good source on talking about generate steady passive cash flow? I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints. If such engineer quits their job, they would not be able to sustain their life style, especially when they have more than one kid, even if they are willing to change to a more moderate life style. Of course they could sell their assets to generate cash, but I assume that's not necessarily wise or sustainable.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  > I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints. In which country? Nearly all developers i worked with in the uk either live with flatmates or rent a property. Their only assets are a macbook pro and pictures of fun holidays. Property owners are rare and most are mortgaged.
  - hintymad 3y ago
    In the US. For good or for bad, many engineers benefit from the explosive growth of IT industry that was fueled by both technology/product advancement and by years of low-interest financial policy.
iamcasen 3y ago
The problem with tech is that the landscape is changing so rapidly. Businesses can hardly keep up before they are obliterated by a new competitor from nowhere. They spend years and millions developing tech assets that age poorly because everything is moving at light speed. So often at my job I feel like I'm pissin' in the wind and struggling to build sand castles as fast as I can before the next tide comes in. Luckily I am excited to work hard and innovate, but it's like sprinting, it cannot be sustained forever. That's the main problem with tech culture: there is no concept of resting, or taking a break. You code at work, and then you go home and code on the latest tech to learn and keep up with the industry.
robotburrito 3y ago
Almost every single software engineer I know dreams about leaving software engineering. Be it to go live in a cabin in the middle of nowhere or become a humble food truck / cart person.

148 points by luu 3y ago

> It turns out that my burnout wasn’t just triggered by a tech job. After reading that I'm pretty sure almost none of it was from a tech job apart from the mild stress that comes from having any job at all.

Turskarama 3y ago
The problem with "Tech Jobs" has nothing to do with tech itself and everything to do with culture. I work a tech job (in Australia though) and work strictly 9-5, I don't even look at emails or team chats outside of work hours. As a result I have had none of the burnout issues which are rampant in the tech industry. Touching computers is not the problem.
- treeman79 3y ago
  Last few years it’s been harder in tech to find jobs where people are obsessed with race/gender. Even trying to stay out it can be a major challenge.
  - cr__ 3y ago
    ???
- toadi 3y ago
  I think it is an American culture thing. In Europe I worked in tech for at least 20 years now. Take 15 public holidays and 20 to 30 paid vacation holidays, affordable health care and education and yes I make less money then my American counterparts. But I never had "that" kind of stress. There is always some stress...
- archsurface 3y ago
  For how many years?
  - Turskarama 3y ago
    8 years in now.
  - JenrHywy 3y ago
    Not the OP, but I've been in tech in Australia for over 20 years. When I was young and stupid I worked 80hr weeks, 24/7 on-call for a couple of years and it destroyed me. After that it has been 40hr weeks unless I feel like working longer.
- beauzero 3y ago
  It was me. I finally quit the 5 year cycle and took a long term...hopefully to retirement job...in state government doing tech. Realized I still loved tech and there are still a few jobs that you can work for the better good and get paid. I still believe in the internet of the 90's and that it can be a thing for good. I get to get up everyday and try to spend my fellow persons' tax payer money the best I can. Maybe on a good day actually do some good for less advantaged people.
- AHOHA 3y ago
  It’s never a tech jobs or tech itself, it’s either the two: insufferable toxic peers/managers, or the culture as you said in ”work hard, party hard” except.. you never party hard and you are exploited to the core.
- strken 3y ago
  Anecdotally I left a high-pressure high-pay tech job in the US to come back to Australia and work a 9-to-5-except-for-oncall job. I ended up losing about 20kg and regaining a lot of lost productivity. This was ironic, because I was actively trying to be less productive, but cutting out the bullshit leaves you with nothing but actual work.
- lisasays 3y ago
  Oh, I do believe tech itself is also a factor. From the physical conditions (sitting, screens - and the ridiculous office spaces) to the intellectual churn (constantly having to learn, and feign excitement about new technologies that, paradoxically, end up making everything buggier, more complex and often slower in real terms, despite vast improvements in the underlying platforms). But yes, by and large it's the "culture", the ideology - and the rampant pettiness and toxicity throughout the people stack.
- dbetteridge 3y ago
  This might be why i've never understood the Burnout that seems to be rife in the Tech industry, is it USA centric? As an Australian developer, I am fortunate to receive 25 days of annual leave along with 10 public holidays, and I make sure to use every single one of them. Whether it's for international travel or exploring different parts of Australia, I prioritise spending time outdoors, camping, and hiking for a few days. During these periods, I am disconnected from screens and the internet. In fact, even if I wanted to be online, there is no signal in the majority of national parks or campgrounds which is a great bonus..
MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
Clearly there are some red flags, like being terrified of Covid. This person is likely high in neuroticism.

Trufa 3y ago

This is not quite related to the article but it struck a chord. I started losing weight around a year and a half ago. I lost around 68kg, or 149 pounds. I’ve been surfing almost every day for a year now. I also took some time off work and almost no social media use. It’s pretty amazing how one feels like the “typical” obese programmer with a stressful job and how you can actually feel. If you’re financially stable enough, I can’t recommend enough to take some time off and take care of yourself, you probably don’t know how bad it feels right now and you probably don’t know how good you can feel if you’re anything like me. I basically haven’t touched a computer since December, and I’m not sure how it will be to go back, I miss some things about programming and I’m considering different challenges to keep that part of my brain active but that allows me to keep surfing daily. Don’t be afraid of the other side is my only point, it’s truly life and perspective changing. Edit: btw, if anyone has any ideas of how to work very few hours a week as a pretty decent full stack web dev without too high of a financial aspirations, I’m all ears, people seem too look for all or nothing employees only.

gotorazor 3y ago
@Trufa - What are you typing this reply on?
- Trufa 3y ago
  My phone :)
  - culi 3y ago
    If I ever got out of tech, HN would be one of the first things I'd like to kick tbh haha. What keeps you coming back? I don't use social media either but this often feels worse in some ways
    - bheadmaster 3y ago
      Not him, but I find HN a good tradeoff between Reddit and 4chan. There are no powerhungry mods that'd ban you without an explanation, but you can still have a conversation without being called homophobic names. The hivemind exists, but the opposition is strong enough that even controversial voices can be heard as long as they are well-argumented.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Glench 3y ago

Good to see fellow tech quitters, although I'm sorry to hear about the author's health issues, and interested that her journey led her back to tech. I quit tech to become a therapist! http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/ http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/

maxverse 3y ago
And you're both Recursers :)
sjamaan 3y ago
I'm also considering a switch but struggle to figure out how to bridge the gap financially. How did you do it? I assume you didn't have a huge list of clients right out the gate.
- Glench 3y ago
  I had some money saved up and also worked part-time contract jobs in tech while in school. I went to school full-time but my school also had a part-time program that would have made it easier to balance everything. Feel free to reach out if you want to chat! Happy to connect
  - sjamaan 3y ago
    I sent you an e-mail
oofnik 3y ago
Thank you for writing and sharing this.

user_named 3y ago

Tech jobs aren't worse than other jobs. They're better than lots of jobs

Clubber 3y ago
The pay is better, but they can be pretty hard on you mentally. The more cushion you have can really help how it affects you though. It really depends on the environment. I've worked way longer than I should have at soul sucking companies.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
PeterWhittaker 3y ago
To echo another comment, and expand, yes, and no: humans are built for steady physical activity and occasional mental. Tech demands often excessive and sustained mental and often, unless the worker is disciplined or otherwise inclined, less physical. So tech completely inverts what millions of years of evolution produced. Add to that the “we don’t talk about feelings” thing so common in our societies, for members of a species descended from social, group animals whose others descendants spend much time chatting and grooming and otherwise interacting with one another without stress, and you have burnout, a blanket term for something we are not built to handle well.

dec0dedab0de 3y ago

I met the author around 10 years ago at the Philly python user group. I remember seeing her switching jobs, rising through the ranks, and going from not knowing what she was talking about to giving presentations in a very short time. At the time I said that she was going to be an absolute star or burn herself out sooner than later. That said, I feel the same way and haven't accomplished as much. So maybe assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice

j_crick 3y ago
> assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice I think it should. I also think that the whole self care stuff, mindfulness etc included, should also be based not around helping you to cope with your pressure, but maximizing personal returns and avoiding cumulative stress in the first place. I don’t know what that would mean in practice specifically, but I definitely wish I encountered the message about prioritizing yourself over your mission more often in the media and in attitudes of people (unless we’re talking about extremes like special forces etc). “You don’t get to your destination by breaking your car” sort of thing.

crtified 3y ago

Sometimes - perhaps even often - the victims of burnout have been working (only just!) within their means, until external factors bring additional layers of pressure, causing everything to crash down. The closer to-the-edge that we work, the less tolerance we have for these factors. We need to consider the headroom needed to weather life's (and the world's) ups and downs. We know that sprinting during a marathon comes at a cost, but the sentiment is less often applied to mental and career long hauls.

haswell 3y ago
There’s a lot of truth in this comment. I left my job last year to go on sabbatical because of burnout. Only after I left did it fully hit me how major a factor the challenges in my personal life had become, and how impossible it had been to give myself space to heal from what had been happening while still working a high stress PM job. A long term relationship on the rocks, nurtured through COVID only to end anyway. The passing of a grandparent, and another grandparent, and a dear pet. A car accident (not my fault), and on the list goes. I’m in a much better place now, but when I was in the middle of these things, my brain tried to convince me I just wasn’t handling the stress at work. It told me I should be able to keep my personal and work lives separate. In retrospect this was all nonsense, but it’s hard to see until you’re able to catch your breath. Take a break.
zacharycohn 3y ago
The "closer-to-the-edge we work" metaphor just blew my mind and helped me recontextualize so much about some of my struggles for the last few years. Truly, thank you.

black_13 3y ago

[dead]

nunobrito 3y ago

OP, seems you are very influenced by mass media. My unrequested personal advice: turn-off the TV and fast-paced social media. Improved my life quality by miles. Nowadays only listen to radio and read things that matter to me in education or for entertainment. Fast food media is great for dopamine shots at the beginning but toxic for most humans on the long run.

resolutebat 3y ago

> then it emerged: a leadership role in product engineering. So apparently the answer to "what happens after I left my SWE career" is "back to SWE".

timwaagh 3y ago

Burnout is such a luxury disease. I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out. Rather you will try to find other things to make some more money, because you need the money. Is that my yealousy talking? Perhaps but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

newshorts 3y ago
To some extent I agree. As a parent of two children under 4, I am exhausted. Given my current obligations though, I’m compelled to keep going. It’s 3:30am, I have a stomach bug and I’m about to give up on sleep for now and get some work done. I’ll do this because it’s necessary to maintain a competitive productivity level with my peers. Burnout is a luxury I can’t afford right now.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
hierarchy of needs once you escape from the daily struggle of survival your needs also changes
awesomeMilou 3y ago
> I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out. Burnout is a symptom of overworking, which can happen even outside salaried work environments. It's a common thing where I live, where you're expected to do undocumented overtime until you have completed your work in the eyes of your employer. It's certainly illegal, but rarely ends up in court.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

I have similar issues, burnt out, health issues, would love to quit but I know if I quit I won't be able to find another job. Being good enough to do the job is no longer good enough to get the job.

hintymad 3y ago

Any good source on talking about generate steady passive cash flow? I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints. If such engineer quits their job, they would not be able to sustain their life style, especially when they have more than one kid, even if they are willing to change to a more moderate life style. Of course they could sell their assets to generate cash, but I assume that's not necessarily wise or sustainable.

gumballindie 3y ago
> I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints. In which country? Nearly all developers i worked with in the uk either live with flatmates or rent a property. Their only assets are a macbook pro and pictures of fun holidays. Property owners are rare and most are mortgaged.
- hintymad 3y ago
  In the US. For good or for bad, many engineers benefit from the explosive growth of IT industry that was fueled by both technology/product advancement and by years of low-interest financial policy.

iamcasen 3y ago

The problem with tech is that the landscape is changing so rapidly. Businesses can hardly keep up before they are obliterated by a new competitor from nowhere. They spend years and millions developing tech assets that age poorly because everything is moving at light speed. So often at my job I feel like I'm pissin' in the wind and struggling to build sand castles as fast as I can before the next tide comes in. Luckily I am excited to work hard and innovate, but it's like sprinting, it cannot be sustained forever. That's the main problem with tech culture: there is no concept of resting, or taking a break. You code at work, and then you go home and code on the latest tech to learn and keep up with the industry.

robotburrito 3y ago

Almost every single software engineer I know dreams about leaving software engineering. Be it to go live in a cabin in the middle of nowhere or become a humble food truck / cart person.