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And we're shocked... why? These aren't real contractors, with complex tasks, negotiations for 3-5x salary of a normal employee. Ive done that. No benefits , bu

• swores 3y ago
  It's a study of the extent to which people are being screwed over, not sure why you're acting like the fact that, depressingly, it's not surprising is a gotcha. That it is happening means we need the government (or courts, or whatever) to take action to fix it, the fact that this hasn't yet happened means that studies like this are extremely useful.
  • jjoonathan 3y ago
    The "gotcha" isn't aimed at the people doing the study or advocating for change, it's aimed at the apologists who were running around with "everyone is winning" rhetoric. There were plenty of them around here. They were very wrong about something that should have been obvious. This is all going to play out again with AI, but moreso, so it's important to keep score.
    • fnimick 3y ago
      They are not wrong. They are lying, and we know they are lying, and they know that we know they are lying, but they have to speak to the pretense of societal good in order to get business and money. Look at SBF's 'effective altruism' schtick to see this in action. Everyone involved knew it was bullshit, but it had to be said to keep the money flowing in.
  • s1artibartfast 3y ago
    This whole topic seems to be unnecessary and stupid. Gig workers should all be sole Proprietors of their own businesses. The only reason they aren't is because governments make it difficult to run your own business. This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. Gig workers would be responsible for all of their own benefits, but be able to deduct all of their business costs. They would be responsible for if their own business turns a profit or loss and if they want to continue it.
    • SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      Besides business cost deductions how does this solve the problems? How would having it be a business make it different than the cost benefit they could do right now? I feel like "just make a business" doesn't actually help that much, especially not morally - I'm unsure what that means in this context, or how being a business solves it.
      • s1artibartfast 3y ago
        It solves the problem because there is no expectation to socially ensure every owner operated business is profitable. If I open a hot dog stand or buy a taxi cab, nobody cares if I pay myself minimum wage or even make a profit.
        • SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
          Ah, so it takes the problem and dehumanizes it.
          • s1artibartfast 3y ago
            I think rather it highlights the hypocrisy and double think people have when they see the word employee. They have completely different expectations for two cab drivers doing the same exact job if one is an employee and one is incorporated. The employee is morally entitled to a minimum income and all sorts of benefits while the Incorporated one is responsible for taking care of themselves. This is understood and expected and the only difference is a piece of paper filed with the state
  • candiodari 3y ago
    The government can only make this work disappear, illegal, and you know it. They cannot fix it. Fact of the matter is that even with labor conditions like this Uber and Food Delivery and other gig economy marketplaces are delivering services that are too expensive. More expensive than the threshold where average people would say "I'll just (go there/use public transport/get my food/fix it) myself". A lot of companies like Uber are effectively transferring wealth from investors to poor people ... If the government touches this, whoever does that it will be skinned alive, because governments have failed since the 80s to provide an economy where jobs are plentiful and easy enough.
• stri8ed 3y ago
  Would there be any demand for those gig works, if it had to pay comparable to full employment? And would that be a good thing?
  • mattwad 3y ago
    an extreme example of this would be "well, would there be any demand for slaves if you had to pay them? would that be a good thing?"
    • stri8ed 3y ago
      Very important distinction here, and that is self volition. To be clear I'm not saying it's good or bad. I think it's a genuine question. What if there are simply not enough jobs available at the rates that people want to be paid?
      • pavlov 3y ago
        It's not like this is a new debate. The US introduced a federal minimum wage in 1933 after a long push to end non-living wages in sweatshops. From the Wikipedia article [1]: "Minimum wage legislation emerged at the end of the nineteenth century from the desire to end sweated labor which had developed in the wake of industrialization. Sweatshops employed large numbers of women and young workers, paying them what were considered nonliving wages that did not allow workers to afford the necessaries of life. Besides substandard wages, sweating was also associated with long work hours and unsanitary and unsafe work conditions." Some other countries have universally binding collective agreements [2] that have the same outcome of establishing a salary floor. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement
      • Jochim 3y ago
        Where is the self volition following: > What if there are simply not enough jobs available at the rates that people want to be paid? Decisions are made by others that put people in a position where there is practically no self volition, only struggle. There is no shortage of resources or capital that requires us to put these people in that position, as evidenced by the, ever growing, vast sums of wealth controlled by a tiny minority. We could choose to restructure things in such a way that people are paid more fairly, and everyone works less.
• ivanhoe 3y ago
  It's a practice of basically praying on the vulnerable social groups, and that should make it a problem of the whole society - and even if one doesn't care of ethical issues of such exploitation of fellow human beings, and lacks any empathy for them at all, at least they should care about the burden that its side-effects put on the budget. Our tax money then has to be used to fix problems created by such evil business practices instead of using it on something else, so these companies are really ripping us all off in the process.
• kinnth 3y ago
  From the small interactions i've had with deliveroo/uber, most of the workers there LOVE the flexibility. It's the main reason they do it and they sacrafice some financial rewards for that flexibility. So I believe workers should get paid the minimum, but im sure that gig work fills a niche that no other work does. They don't want to negotiate, they want simplicity and flexibility or else they could work as temp staffing or short term work such as call center or gigs, that are paid well but often bad work.
  • bee_rider 3y ago
    Generally people put on an appearance of cheerfulness while working, especially if they are incentivized to make you happy (good review, tips). So I’d take this sort of measurement with a grain of salt.
    • vorpalhex 3y ago
      So we can't depend on reports from people themselves and instead we should make decisions about their work from our ivory tower? Bluntly, we should listen to the people working the jobs. They can all do basic math. What do they get from gig work? We can also go read their conversations between each other on places like reddit, and many of them still like gig work in that context. It's beyond rude to assume you know better than someone's direct words.
      • bee_rider 3y ago
        I’m saying the measurement provides almost no information, skewed as it is. That doesn’t indicate that I know the opposite is true. Sure, we could go elsewhere and look for another signal that might have some value.
      • boondoggle16 3y ago
        > Bluntly, we should listen to the people working the jobs. We should do this in a study, not by asking people at work. Have you ever worked in retail, customer service, or other emotional labor positions? You are literally not allowed to look or be sad for most of the day, or you will be fired. Looking happy is part of the work. > They can all do basic math. Sadly, this isn't true. Financial literacy is super low, and no, people driving for uber do not understand the math behind deferred risk. If they did, none of them would take the job. Do you know any uber drivers? Anyone in low paid positions at all?
• MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  There have been multiple times where I've forgotten to change the dollar amount on a Doordash tip (I try to tip generously) for something purchased locally... usually it ends up being a $25 order with a $3-4 tip. I don't know if drivers get any part of any of the fees, but I know that I've always gotten the thing I ordered. It's crazy, but people still do it.
• settrans 3y ago
  I find this sanctimonious _I know better than you_ attitude shocking and inappropriately condescending. Just because these people are earning less than minimum wage, what makes you think you know better than them what's good for them, and that they "don't have a clue"? Why is this "blatantly obvious"? Why are they not rational actors but you are? Given that so many people are making this choice for themselves, it feels like it's possible that there's demand for below-minimum-wage labor (otherwise, why wouldn't they go and get minimum-wage jobs?).
  • oliwarner 3y ago
    I think you might be mistaking making a choice with having a choice. These people don't have another choice. Many gig workers do gig work around other work and pressures (eg childcare). The work they do isn't what they would choose all other things being equal but the soaring cost of living, the lack of affordable and convenient childcare means people have to do sums that end in them doing a few hours a day in a shitty extra job. I think many would rather choose a better paid job compatible with modern life. They just don't exist.
    • jjk166 3y ago
      That seems like a problem with the alternatives - no one else is giving them the flexibility or the additional hours they need. Make their day jobs pay better and offer more flexibility so they don't need gig work, don't make the gig work they need harder to get.
      • oliwarner 3y ago
        When you race to the bottom, there aren't alternatives. Companies cut their costs by pushing more and more jobs to this cheaper (low rights, no progression, no holiday, no health, no benefits) gig work. They quickly out-competed. Everyone is forced to hire on the same terms to stay competitive. Very quickly it's not that "the alternatives" aren't good enough, they just don't exist any more. Shitty gig work conditions exist because we permit it. If we didn't, employers would hire part time staff like they used to, instead of forcing everybody to be a zero-hours "contractor".
• dumbfounder 3y ago
  How much time is spent going to and from work when you have a normal job, maybe 10%? (actually, more, the average is 59 minutes: https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/commute-to-wor https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/commute-to...). That cuts the gap to almost nothing right there. They cite that logging on and looking for work as factors in the calculation, this seems like a one-sided manipulation to make the numbers look bad to me if you don't include commute time on the other side. The study (shockingly!) seems to have an agenda based on the conclusions it came to: "The self-employed who are dependent on platforms to make a living are urgently in need of labour protections to shield them against the huge power asymmetries that exist in the sector. This clearly warrants the expansion of the current ‘worker’ status to protect them." I do not think they need shields. There are plenty of reasons on both sides. We can educate them on the plusses and minuses, but let them make a choice.
• chongli 3y ago
  And it's blatantly obvious why - it lowers cost and transfers liability to people who don't have a clue what those externalized liabilities really are. That’s one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that it’s serving the previously untapped market for below-minimum-wage work. If this gig work did not exist, some of the workers would find regular minimum wage jobs but many would be left unemployed. Many of the Uber drivers I’ve met are educated immigrants to my country (Canada). They are underemployed because of various barriers put in place to protect the jobs of locals. Usually, the issue is that their credentials aren’t recognized because they were earned in another country. So the question is: what are the gig work companies supposed to do about this? They didn’t make the laws/regulations preventing these workers from getting better jobs. If they went away, these workers might have no other opportunities. If anyone is to blame, it should be the citizens who simultaneously support an increase in immigration and at the same time erect regulatory/professional credential roadblocks preventing those skilled immigrants from working in their field of expertise. Of course, another portion of gig workers are people like my father: semi-retired, not professionally credentialed, and doing gig work part time to make ends meet (his pension is not even close to livable). Taking gig work away from him would put him on the street. Edit: one more thing I’d like to add. Based on reports from my dad, the number of food delivery drivers in our city is increasing so the availability of orders (and hence productive hours of work) is decreasing. At the same time, restaurants all over the city have posted signs advertising the availability of kitchen jobs. If gig work is so undesirable (because it ostensibly pays less than minimum wage), why are there so many vacancies at restaurants (which do pay minimum wage) but none in gig work?
  • anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > So the question is: what are the gig work companies supposed to do about this? The article isn't asking this question, it's posing answers to another question: "What should society do about gig work companies?" The solutions proposed in this article are: "Respondents strongly felt the creation of co-determination mechanisms would allow workers, and their representatives, to influence platform provider decisions which could instantly improve their working lives. "These policies include elected bodies of worker representatives approving all major platform changes that impact jobs and working conditions. Our findings emphasise the potential for trade union growth in this sector, with majorities being willing to join and even organise such bodies." > If gig work is so undesirable (because it ostensibly pays less than minimum wage), why are there so many vacancies at restaurants (which do pay minimum wage) but none in gig work? Good question.
• bee_rider 3y ago
  They probably understand the idea of externalized liabilities. Or, at least, we have no reason to suspect they have any less understand of the idea than us. Probably they have more understanding of it, given that they are living the experience of having liabilities externalized onto them. (Although maybe some of us here work for these gig app platform companies and have a heightened understanding of the phenomenon their company is abusing). I think it is more likely that these folks just don’t have better employment opportunities. The race to the bottom on quality of life is a big collective action problem, right? We know the solution, minimum wage laws, it is just that we prefer cheap services to making sure everybody gets a humane living standard.
• jjk166 3y ago
  The hallmark of contract employees is not a massive increase in hourly pay, it is the ability to choose when you work and what jobs you take. Minimum wage makes sense for traditional employment because it's all or nothing, it doesn't matter how much you don't want to come into work today, either you work or you're fired. With gig economy work, you can say "eh this isn't worth it for me" when the compensation would be low or if you had something better to do, but still get paid when it would be more advantageous for you. If people aren't being compensated enough to justify the time spent, they can just stop with no penalties. That for many people a menial gig that pays less than minimum wage is better than any alternative they have access to is the real issue. People should have access to rewarding work and hobbies that they'd prefer to gig work, but you don't fix that by making gig work pay more.
• ilaksh 3y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. I have been a contractor for most software engineering jobs I have done for many years and all of them were very complex. None of them were for a particularly high rate like $300/hour. The rate actually has generally been fairly unrelated to the complexity. Possibly the biggest determining factor in my rate has been how much savings I had (usually close to zero) when I needed to find another contract. That determined how selective I could be and how long I could spend looking. If your option is to take the next contract or miss rent, you take what you can get, often for a discounted rate.