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RIP :( I need a source for "lapsed mormon". It doesn't seem like something that the author should just be coming up with to describe her. Google turns up littl

RIP :( I need a source for "lapsed mormon". It doesn't seem like something that the author should just be coming up with to describe her. Google turns up little. There's this which has the term but doesn't say if she identified that way: https://www.forbes.com/2009/05/06/mom-advice-bloggers-technology-personal-bloggers_slide.html?sh=5aa98ad47b57 https://www.forbes.com/2009/05/06/mom-advice-bloggers-techno...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pbiggar 3y ago
https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-to-provide-for-each-other-and-why-i-walked-away/ https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-...
- benatkin 3y ago
  I was looking specifically for the word "lapsed".
  - skmurphy 3y ago
    First sentence second paragraph of https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-to-provide-for-each-other-and-why-i-walked-away/ https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-... "My friend Ashley was in charge of organizing the event and asked if I’d speak knowing that I had my name removed from the church rolls earlier this year." "Lapsed" means left the church. "Removed from church rolls" means left the church
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - benatkin 3y ago
      There's some nuance to the term. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35894795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35894795
      - mlyle 3y ago
        I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You're linking to -someone else- explaining why it's a fitting description.
        benatkin 3y ago
        Just because they disagree at least partially with me doesn't mean they agree completely with each other. GP seems to be making an argument for linguistic neutrality, that any term that means something is as good as any other term that means the same thing. The reply I linked expands on how the term "lapsed" is used, which shows that there are subtle differences in what it communicates...
        mlyle 3y ago
        You're not indicating what you think the problem is. It's frustrating for other people seeking to communicate with you. You're not even indicating what part of those sources that you believe supports your view-- which as far as I can tell they don't. "Lapsed" in my experience has a friendlier connotation than most other words we would to describe someone who no longer practices a religion. Here we have someone who has not just stopped attending the church, but has chose to speak at events for others leaving the church, and took action to have her name removed from the rolls, etc. So while some use "lapsed" to say "no longer actively practicing," and others reserve it for "having deliberately left"-- the nuances are immaterial. She fit all of these labels.
        benatkin 3y ago
        > It's frustrating for other people seeking to communicate with you. OK then, we're done here. Chao.
thenerdhead 3y ago
It is a common term in religion for "not very active/practicing" or "lapsed the expectations of the church(such as tithings)". Sometimes used to even describe ex-Mormons. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-active_Mormon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-active_Mormon
- benatkin 3y ago
  That's how I view the term. It seems personal, like many other parts of a person's identity. I myself am an ex-mormon and don't like the term lapsed mormon for myself because I had issues with the faith and tried to work through them before willfully breaking the rules. There's nothing wrong with people doing it in a way that is better characterized by lapsed but it would be a bit misleading to portray how I left this way. That said, there are people who are less lapsed and left more deliberately than me.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    People can call me whatever they want, betrayed would be the best way of putting it. Learning all the lies hidden by the church, and all the doctrine that was told one way but happened another, etc...that's what made me leave. I can't take bullshit, and I'm ashamed it took me so long to see. One read of the CESLetter and I was over on quitmormon.org sending in my resignation.
    - benatkin 3y ago
      I'm fascinated by CESLetter. I myself don't get it because each time I start reading it my eyes glaze over because I learned the most salient things years ago. Seeing others get into it though, it seems to be an example of drinking from the proverbial firehose. I did quitmormon as well, back in 2017. I actually regretted it and was even mad at quitmormon for a time for making it so easy, but I've been at a place where I no longer regret it for a couple of years. And I guess that is where I feel betrayed by the church. If not for Prop 8 and the 2015 policy and the more extreme tax dodges I could have a more relaxed take on it. I still do have a relaxed take on Mormonism.
ubermonkey 3y ago
[flagged]
- benatkin 3y ago
  Fair enough. Maybe I should have phrased it differently. Still I am glad I asked because it has been elucidated for me.
- no-dr-onboard 3y ago
  > You neither need nor are owed such a thing This is a catchy trope designed to shut people down. I've seen it a handful of times in these types of conversations. The statement itself is riddled with irony if you consider it. The statement is meant to criticize a sense of entitlement. The rub is that the person saying it believes (or is unwittingly misrepresenting themself) that they're entitled to speak authoritatively into someone elses life about what they "need" or are "owed".
  - benatkin 3y ago
    What you're doing feels like breaking the fourth wall. It's like when people commented on Paul Graham's use of the phrase "it turns out". https://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out https://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out
- dang 3y ago
  Please edit out swipes, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Your comment would be fine with just the second sentence.
  - ubermonkey 3y ago
    I prefer it as is.
    - dang 3y ago
      That's fine, but we need commenters on HN to abide by the site rules whether they prefer to or not.
shever73 3y ago
The Guardian's take on it was: > Armstrong was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but left the religion years ago. I suppose my question is, why is it relevant to mention at all? Is it because Mormonism is less of a "mainstream" religion, so it deserves more mention than "former Catholic" or "lapsed Protestant"?
- not_the_fda 3y ago
  She used to write a lot about leaving Mormonism and was very critical of it. I believe she deleted critical writing of the church to reconcile with her family.
  - shever73 3y ago
    Ok, that makes sense. I never saw much of the critical stuff, so if it was a big part of her writing identity then I understand why they said it. I just often think that these identifiers (like "lapsed Mormon" or "former member of...") are lazy journalistic shortcuts. The picture they portray in different people's minds may be far from accurate. > She used to write a lot about leaving Mormonism and was very critical of it. What you wrote is clearer, simpler and gives me a more accurate image.
- datavirtue 3y ago
  Because it's probably what fucked her up. These cults are immensely damaging to people under the best of circumstances.
- tomrod 3y ago
  Leaving Brighamite Mormonism typically doesn't let you keep your dignity intact, especially with close friends and family that are adherent. At a basic level, you have to send a notarized letter to the corporation that owns the trademark "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (a virtual theocracy in Utah) demanding they remove you from their records. (cf: quitmormon.com) At a human level, the congregations are geographically based with intense community defined within a geography and effectively-dead treatment to people outside the geography. My parent's area has been a growth area for Utah Mormon transplants for years, so their congregation has split and moved several times. At a recent funeral for an old Boy Scout leader of mine, they remarked on how many people they hadn't seen in over a decade due to the congregation splits. I was frankly amazed -- dozens of these folks they were pointing out had been regular visitors to our home during my school years! To me it seemed strange that folks lived 10 minutes down the road, were great friends, camped together, shopped together, etc. but as soon as an imaginary line changed their friendship came to an end. Now, when someone _willingly_ leaves Mormonism, it's often the case that their family shuns them, mistreats them, and otherwise reacts in fear and loathing, because it both signals to the intense social group that the family has failed to stay Mormon together and is a threat that makes people wonder why someone might leave. Source: personal experience, spouse experience, observed experience, reddit's mormon and exmormon subreddits. When I left Mormonism, as a courtesy I let people know in a social media post. I received about 500 personal messages from people I knew. 90% were vilifying -- my own mother calling me "so smart it made me stupid", a uniquely East Texan insult I've come to learn -- 9% were interested, of which 8 out of 10 of those people eventually left themselves and with their families. At the funeral I mentioned earlier, I was effectively a persona non grata. That's okay. I wasn't there for me. I was there to remember and honor a sweet man, one of the few who reached out then and later with compassion and tolerance despite not agreeing with my choice. I believe there are a few other high-demand religions with similar institutional failings preventing freedom of thought and association, but I'll not call those out here, simply note that this isn't a unique phenomenon to Mormonism nor is it ubiquitous to religion generally.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pbiggar 3y ago

https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-to-provide-for-each-other-and-why-i-walked-away/ https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-...

benatkin 3y ago
I was looking specifically for the word "lapsed".
- skmurphy 3y ago
  First sentence second paragraph of https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-to-provide-for-each-other-and-why-i-walked-away/ https://dooce.com/2017/11/06/on-the-power-of-a-congregation-... "My friend Ashley was in charge of organizing the event and asked if I’d speak knowing that I had my name removed from the church rolls earlier this year." "Lapsed" means left the church. "Removed from church rolls" means left the church
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - benatkin 3y ago
    There's some nuance to the term. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35894795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35894795
    - mlyle 3y ago
      I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You're linking to -someone else- explaining why it's a fitting description.
      - benatkin 3y ago
        Just because they disagree at least partially with me doesn't mean they agree completely with each other. GP seems to be making an argument for linguistic neutrality, that any term that means something is as good as any other term that means the same thing. The reply I linked expands on how the term "lapsed" is used, which shows that there are subtle differences in what it communicates...
        mlyle 3y ago
        You're not indicating what you think the problem is. It's frustrating for other people seeking to communicate with you. You're not even indicating what part of those sources that you believe supports your view-- which as far as I can tell they don't. "Lapsed" in my experience has a friendlier connotation than most other words we would to describe someone who no longer practices a religion. Here we have someone who has not just stopped attending the church, but has chose to speak at events for others leaving the church, and took action to have her name removed from the rolls, etc. So while some use "lapsed" to say "no longer actively practicing," and others reserve it for "having deliberately left"-- the nuances are immaterial. She fit all of these labels.
        benatkin 3y ago
        > It's frustrating for other people seeking to communicate with you. OK then, we're done here. Chao.

thenerdhead 3y ago

It is a common term in religion for "not very active/practicing" or "lapsed the expectations of the church(such as tithings)". Sometimes used to even describe ex-Mormons. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-active_Mormon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-active_Mormon

benatkin 3y ago
That's how I view the term. It seems personal, like many other parts of a person's identity. I myself am an ex-mormon and don't like the term lapsed mormon for myself because I had issues with the faith and tried to work through them before willfully breaking the rules. There's nothing wrong with people doing it in a way that is better characterized by lapsed but it would be a bit misleading to portray how I left this way. That said, there are people who are less lapsed and left more deliberately than me.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  People can call me whatever they want, betrayed would be the best way of putting it. Learning all the lies hidden by the church, and all the doctrine that was told one way but happened another, etc...that's what made me leave. I can't take bullshit, and I'm ashamed it took me so long to see. One read of the CESLetter and I was over on quitmormon.org sending in my resignation.
  - benatkin 3y ago
    I'm fascinated by CESLetter. I myself don't get it because each time I start reading it my eyes glaze over because I learned the most salient things years ago. Seeing others get into it though, it seems to be an example of drinking from the proverbial firehose. I did quitmormon as well, back in 2017. I actually regretted it and was even mad at quitmormon for a time for making it so easy, but I've been at a place where I no longer regret it for a couple of years. And I guess that is where I feel betrayed by the church. If not for Prop 8 and the 2015 policy and the more extreme tax dodges I could have a more relaxed take on it. I still do have a relaxed take on Mormonism.

ubermonkey 3y ago

[flagged]

benatkin 3y ago
Fair enough. Maybe I should have phrased it differently. Still I am glad I asked because it has been elucidated for me.
no-dr-onboard 3y ago
> You neither need nor are owed such a thing This is a catchy trope designed to shut people down. I've seen it a handful of times in these types of conversations. The statement itself is riddled with irony if you consider it. The statement is meant to criticize a sense of entitlement. The rub is that the person saying it believes (or is unwittingly misrepresenting themself) that they're entitled to speak authoritatively into someone elses life about what they "need" or are "owed".
- benatkin 3y ago
  What you're doing feels like breaking the fourth wall. It's like when people commented on Paul Graham's use of the phrase "it turns out". https://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out https://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out
dang 3y ago
Please edit out swipes, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Your comment would be fine with just the second sentence.
- ubermonkey 3y ago
  I prefer it as is.
  - dang 3y ago
    That's fine, but we need commenters on HN to abide by the site rules whether they prefer to or not.

shever73 3y ago

The Guardian's take on it was: > Armstrong was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but left the religion years ago. I suppose my question is, why is it relevant to mention at all? Is it because Mormonism is less of a "mainstream" religion, so it deserves more mention than "former Catholic" or "lapsed Protestant"?

not_the_fda 3y ago
She used to write a lot about leaving Mormonism and was very critical of it. I believe she deleted critical writing of the church to reconcile with her family.
- shever73 3y ago
  Ok, that makes sense. I never saw much of the critical stuff, so if it was a big part of her writing identity then I understand why they said it. I just often think that these identifiers (like "lapsed Mormon" or "former member of...") are lazy journalistic shortcuts. The picture they portray in different people's minds may be far from accurate. > She used to write a lot about leaving Mormonism and was very critical of it. What you wrote is clearer, simpler and gives me a more accurate image.
datavirtue 3y ago
Because it's probably what fucked her up. These cults are immensely damaging to people under the best of circumstances.
tomrod 3y ago
Leaving Brighamite Mormonism typically doesn't let you keep your dignity intact, especially with close friends and family that are adherent. At a basic level, you have to send a notarized letter to the corporation that owns the trademark "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (a virtual theocracy in Utah) demanding they remove you from their records. (cf: quitmormon.com) At a human level, the congregations are geographically based with intense community defined within a geography and effectively-dead treatment to people outside the geography. My parent's area has been a growth area for Utah Mormon transplants for years, so their congregation has split and moved several times. At a recent funeral for an old Boy Scout leader of mine, they remarked on how many people they hadn't seen in over a decade due to the congregation splits. I was frankly amazed -- dozens of these folks they were pointing out had been regular visitors to our home during my school years! To me it seemed strange that folks lived 10 minutes down the road, were great friends, camped together, shopped together, etc. but as soon as an imaginary line changed their friendship came to an end. Now, when someone _willingly_ leaves Mormonism, it's often the case that their family shuns them, mistreats them, and otherwise reacts in fear and loathing, because it both signals to the intense social group that the family has failed to stay Mormon together and is a threat that makes people wonder why someone might leave. Source: personal experience, spouse experience, observed experience, reddit's mormon and exmormon subreddits. When I left Mormonism, as a courtesy I let people know in a social media post. I received about 500 personal messages from people I knew. 90% were vilifying -- my own mother calling me "so smart it made me stupid", a uniquely East Texan insult I've come to learn -- 9% were interested, of which 8 out of 10 of those people eventually left themselves and with their families. At the funeral I mentioned earlier, I was effectively a persona non grata. That's okay. I wasn't there for me. I was there to remember and honor a sweet man, one of the few who reached out then and later with compassion and tolerance despite not agreeing with my choice. I believe there are a few other high-demand religions with similar institutional failings preventing freedom of thought and association, but I'll not call those out here, simply note that this isn't a unique phenomenon to Mormonism nor is it ubiquitous to religion generally.