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Apple busts iOS 17 leaker with spycraft ‘canary trap’

184 points by isomorph 3y ago

DamonHD 3y ago
Again: the site's cookie selection wouldn't know what GDPR and privacy were if they came up and bit it, but dark patterns are its old friend...
CharlesW 3y ago
> It appears to be the first time Apple has used the method to catch a source of internal leaks. Definitely not. One of the infamous examples we know about is that Think Secret was forced to shut down after publishing a planted leak about a FireWire audio interface. https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_subpoenas_mac_rumor_sites_over_audio_product https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_subpoenas_mac_...
- SllX 3y ago
  I thought it was pretty well known in Apple circles this was one of the methods they use. I didn’t know the term for it until now though.
- nntwozz 3y ago
  Oh man Think Secret was juicy back in the day, it had awesome leaks. Good times.
  - giobox 3y ago
    I was thinking the other day it's funny there's like an entire generation of Apple enthusiasts have now grown up not even knowing about the site, and its not like its still online as a historical thing - the quality and accuracy of some of the stories "Nick dePlume" broke was pretty amazing back then. The wikipedia page doesn't do it justice. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Secret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Secret
- dgriffinjones 3y ago
  From your own link: > Having failed to identify who leaked the information regarding "Asteroid", Apple requested the subpoenas in an effort to find the culprit. In that case, they used the courts to compel publishers to divulge their source. In this case, Apple’s own methods of planting a false flag among their employees caught the source. This is what the author was referring to.
  - SoylentYellow 3y ago
    Apple tried to use the courts but failed. The California Appeal's court granted the publishers a protection order against revealing their sources: https://www.eff.org/cases/apple-v-does https://www.eff.org/cases/apple-v-does
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    I recall reports that the leak Think Secret published was planted by Apple, but that was long ago, and most of the original reporting has disappeared. I can personally confirm that Apple wanted employees to know that planting leaks was something that Apple sometimes did, so it wasn't a huge surprise at the time.
  - giobox 3y ago
    Is there any evidence the "Asteroid" device was fake for the purposes of finding a leaker? I've never heard that angle, and I'm pretty familiar with the case and followed the trial and Think Secret at the time. While it never launched, it clearly made sense as a device given Apple's recent launch of Garage Band. From what I've just searched, the only "evidence" it was a hoax appears to originate in this very speculative theory concocted on lowendmac.com that the entire thing was planned to take down the rumor industry, which seems possible but unlikely to me: > https://lowendmac.com/2006/sudden-impact-apples-great-asteroid-hoax/ https://lowendmac.com/2006/sudden-impact-apples-great-astero... The article also argues its odd for Apple not to release something that was planned, but hardware companies I imagine cancel unannounced devices all the time. Audio interfaces is a crowded space thats hard to stand out in too, even for someone like Apple. This claim alone makes me not trust the article: > "after over two years, Apple hasn’t released a breakout box for use with GarageBand... Sound suspicious? It should. If this was an important project, you’d think Apple would have gone ahead with it even after the “trade secret” of its existence was made known. You’d think they would have rushed to market to take advantage of the buzz." I can't agree with that statement at all! There are countless reasons it could have been cancelled, and it was never all that "important" to begin with. It's also written by "Anne Onymus" - believe what you will.
- quitit 3y ago
  I recall reading years ago that false information was always disseminated through Apple specifically for this purpose, along with many other forms of tracking and that staff knew about it specifically to limit temptation. When the goal is to stop the leak, letting staff know of the activities is more powerful than keeping the programme secret. In one example for the iPad, Business Insider reported that the device was chained to the desk and photos of the desk’s wood grain were taken to simplify singling out any leaked photos. Obviously they could refer to the wood grain later, with so few prototypes, preshooting photos isn’t needed - however it’s about conveying the message. A lot of this stuff is theatre to telegraph to staff that they risk the weight of the NDA.
webwielder2 3y ago
Never understood the motivation for leakers. Are their lives that gray?
- dmbche 3y ago
  My understanding is that for websites that live on leaking things from manufacturers, the person who leaks gets some of the revenue. I wouldn't be surprised they get people hired to get access to the information. Doubt it's a good way to run a profitable enterprise - but I'm sure some people do
  - trzy 3y ago
    I don’t know about that. It’s usually just reporters reaching out asking you to dish in violation of your NDA for nothing in return. When I left Apple TDG, I was contacted by two reporters from well known publications on LinkedIn. I completely ignored both. Quite frankly it’s pretty upsetting that they’re so eager to put people in legal and financial jeopardy to write their stupid columns.
    - dmbche 3y ago
      Wow! I was going from their comments on the leaker being fired after this leak being done - I imagine the site has a roster or something? Or a bounty program kind of thing? Edit: hadn't read the full thing - it's just a guy that shared stuff her sister said to him for internet points - what a loser
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > I completely ignored both. That's very wise. Here's an illustrative tale, although I'm omitting details that could identify myself or the companies involved. Many years ago when I was still pretty wet behind the ears, I had just completed the sale of my company to another. This was fairly big news at the time, and my phone was ringing off the hook with reporters wanting more details. The details -- especially the sale price -- were confidential, and I was contractually prohibited from discussing them. One particularly devious reporter managed to get me involved in a "friendly" conversation talking generally (and safely) about the the two companies, then when my guard was down, asked me a question that wasn't directly about the sale price -- but my answer did tell him the general magnitude of it, which he reported. It was a huge hairy problem that took weeks to smooth over. It nearly made the deal fall through. I learned to never talk to reporters. Some of them are very, very good at their job.
yasp 3y ago
Really foolish to keep posting with details even after the sister was caught. Some people just can't help themselves.
- grupthink 3y ago
  If my sister was caught doing something illegal, the last thing I would do is reveal more details about her inside leaks online (that could be further used against her in court). It feels like a cautionary tale for would-be leakers inside of Apple.
  - vkou 3y ago
    Generally speaking, leakers aren't very smart.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Whenever I hear people say some variant of "criminals aren't very smart", there's a part of my brain that says "how do we know? Surely the smart ones aren't getting caught so we never hear about them."
      - xoa 3y ago
        >"how do we know? Surely the smart ones aren't getting caught so we never hear about them." This only works if you exclusively consider crimes that have zero discernible external effect ("victimless crimes" in common parlance). Some percentage of copyright infringement or drug use would be good examples. But most crimes people really care about have external effects, and that is indeed precisely why they're crimes. If someone robs a house, they need not ever be caught for everyone to know a house was robbed. In turn, one can consider the ratio of crimes to criminals-caught-for-those-crimes. Further, since trials are all fully public, one can look at why exactly those criminals were caught. If most get caught, and it tends to be for stupid mistakes, then one can reasonably argue "criminals aren't very smart". Leaks by definition are self-revealing, that's the point of them. If secret information is appearing in the general world, the organization knows their are one or more leaks, even if the exact nature of them could be a number of things (ie, could be an insider, could be a partner, could be an external break-in).
pasttense01 3y ago
Did the leaker make any money out of the leaks?
- porkbeer 3y ago
  Unlikely
darth_avocado 3y ago
Hard way to learn that internet likes aren’t everything.
barbegal 3y ago
I remember the rumors of a 2025 release date and thinking that is oddly far into the future. If you were deeply involved in the project you would know that those dates weren't accurate so it must have been someone on the periphery. In that case the number of possible date combinations will be far fewer than the number of people who need to be informed so it seems this must have been a targeted communication to someone Apple suspected was leaking information.
- junofan 3y ago
  It’s a hardware company, so it’s not uncommon for software to be planned a few years out.
  - MagicMoonlight 3y ago
    They plan their phones multiple years ahead. We already know the next 4 phones will have basically no difference. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re equally boring with their software.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
gnicholas 3y ago
> Leaks spoil Apple’s surprise “one-last-thing” approach to product unveilings I remember Steve doing "one last thing" announcements a long time ago, but have they done any in the post-Steve era? I can't remember the last one, TBH.
- n2d4 3y ago
  Apple Watch, Apple Music, and iPhone X, according to Macworld. https://www.macworld.com/article/674643/every-one-more-thing-apple-has-ever-announced.html https://www.macworld.com/article/674643/every-one-more-thing...
- asimpletune 3y ago
  The last one I remember was actually the Swift programming language.
dividedbyzero 3y ago
> According to analyst941’s post, Apple might take legal action against both the former employee and the tipster. Assuming the tipster is not under any NDA, is there anything Apple could take them to court for?
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Reporting on leaked documents is not a crime. Providing financial, sexual, or other incentives for leaked documents could be a crime. Publishing certain parts of leaked documents (i.e. reporting on a major breach of 1 million social security numbers, by publishing all of the leaked numbers; or reporting the Nintendo breach by posting Nintendo's source code), could be a crime or civil issue on a circumstantial basis. For groups like Wikileaks, it helps that US government documents and laws, with limited exceptions, are not copyrighted or copyrightable in the US. So when they report a huge NSA scandal and publish those documents, the government can't claim copyright infringement... but they will tear the place apart to find the leaker. And of course, spy on the reporter extremely closely for any possible legal slip-up no matter how small (or, arguably, if they hate the reporter enough, make something up).
- sberens 3y ago
  From the article: > Apple also requires its employees to sign nondisclosure agreements, which forbid the signees from discussing secret projects with unauthorized people. That includes other Apple employees — and most certainly anyone outside the company.
  - jonny_eh 3y ago
    The tipster didn't work for Apple.
    - vulcan01 3y ago
      His sister shared the secret project with the "unauthorized person" (the tipster).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
sourcecodeplz 3y ago
Trust, honesty, secrecy, decency are difficult to find together. Edit: the sister was most likely in marketing/social
colmmacc 3y ago
Has a single significant Apple launch not leaked in the last decade? I can't think of any. With the scale of the company and corporate loyalty being what they are these days, it just seems inevitable that many things will leak. Yet Apple persist in a hyper-vigilant program of leak prevention. There's definitely still huge value in the newsworthiness of the launches. Apple get a lot of free media coverage, and for the most part the press treat the actual launches as news because that final official confirmation matters much more than tenuous leaks. But I often wonder if the top down focus on secrecy and the famous leak prevention programs are more motivated by the strong desire for focus. One of the challenges of keeping a big company effective is combating the tendency for well-meaning collaboration and suggestion making to turn into sluggish bureaucracy and committees. Secrecy a very powerful tool in optimizing a corporate culture, and reminding everyone that it is definitely not ok to share things has that big benefit too.
- giobox 3y ago
  > Has a single significant Apple launch not leaked in the last decade? It's not a black and white leak vs no leak situation - there are very clearly degrees of severity at play here. To use a recent example, sure we all know Apple is working on a VR headset, but there have been (to best of my knowledge) no meaningful leaks of images of the actual hardware or software; these will be a surprise on launch day, and surprises can be news worthy - helpful when trying to sell new things, or slow down the rate at which competitors build imitations.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    The thing is, this didn't need to be leaked of us to know it. It was just obvious from job postings.
- foverzar 3y ago
  There are leaks, and then there are leaks. The former is bad for business and the latter is marketing.
  - sublinear 3y ago
haney 3y ago
Can anyone recommend a book or resource for an introduction to spy craft? I’m sure there are more approaches like ‘canary traps’ that would be useful mechanisms to understand.
- vermilingua 3y ago
  John le Carré’s books contain many such pearls.
zyang 3y ago
You know what would the make the situation better, write up a melodramatic full admission of guilt and linked himself to his sister.
amelius 3y ago
If they can't even keep their releases a secret, how can I trust them with my data?
Nullabillity 3y ago
The tone in this comment section is, frankly, baffling. Nobody owes Apple any kind of right to control when or how their products are announced.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  What's baffling? It's not a matter of "owing" Apple any right. Apple already has the inherent right to control what and when they want to publicly reveal, and anyone who has signed an NDA with them has made a promise that they won't do it first.
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    > Apple already has the inherent right to control what and when they want to publicly reveal Why? This isn't PII, and the only one thing hurt by leaking it is Tim Cook's fragile ego.
    - wilg 3y ago
      I mean it's just a right to privacy really, isn't it?
      - Nullabillity 3y ago
        People have a right to privacy, corporations don't.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        Legally speaking, they do. Not to the same degree as people, but still.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Whether or not harm comes of it is kinda beside the point. The point is that if you've promised not to reveal information, you've promised not to reveal information. If you do so anyway, you're in the wrong. If it's a whistleblower situation, breaking that promise can be justifiable, but leaks like this aren't that.
yalogin 3y ago
I don't get why employees leak like this. They know full well that the company does not want to reveal info and the employees are told not to leak too. I don't get what they get by leaking. In this case the girl is not even getting any money. Even if they get money it will never be enough to cover for a 6 figure salary + stock options. Such foolish people in this world throwing hard work away. If you don't believe in secrecy or believe in revealing info for what ever reason, just dont join the company, it's very simple.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  I think they want to feel important. Most people aren’t rational, the pay grade doesn’t change the emotional roller coaster that much because people feel bad for themselves when look up the ladder. A 500K salary and working at a prestigious company will impress a lot of people but those in that position will be exposed to the existence of much greater wealth and much more accomplished people. This will make them feel like unremarkable failure. In this particular case though, it appears than someone was just boosting to their sibling.
- reaperman 3y ago
  Classical "Counter-intelligence" wisdom boiled it down to the acronym "MICE". - Money - Ideology - Compromise/Coercion - Ego/Extortion Apple has about 164,000 employees - it's difficult to hire for the skills you want and also avoid any potential for these motivators. Especially when the CIA itself notes that: > While problematic personality features are essential, they are not sufficient to provoke espionage. The majority of people who have some, or even many, of the personality features described above will never engage in criminal conduct. This quote informs us that the optimum rate of leaks is not "zero" because you'd be throwing out a lot of babies with the bathwater. Basic overview: https://theconversation.com/how-ordinary-people-are-convinced-to-become-spies-166688 https://theconversation.com/how-ordinary-people-are-convince... More details on personality dysfunctions which lead to leaks: https://www.cia.gov/static/30b273c621d0896f13104ff48840b68f/psychology-of-espionage.pdf https://www.cia.gov/static/30b273c621d0896f13104ff48840b68f/... > In his memoir Carney quotes himself as asking the OSI officers arresting him “What took you so long?” (Against All Enemies, 592); he also claims to have made several attempts during the arrest to assert rights as a German citizen but was told to shut up. FBI Special Agent Robert Hanssen also contemptuously asked the FBI colleagues arresting him, “What took you so long?” Both Hanssen and Carney demonstrated the reflexive grandiosity described in the personality section of this article in this sarcastic comment. When he was arrested, Ames said, “You’re making a big mistake! You must have the wrong man!” demonstrating the automatic cunning and slipperiness characteristic of psychopaths.
npunt 3y ago
It's incredibly stupid to leak like this, plus it's a real f-you to the people working on the stuff. If I were on a product that got leaked I'd be pissed seeing my unfinished work out there. Looking at this person's past leaks[1] their eagerness for approval is on full display, and it's just a bunch of details that do nothing but diminish the magic. The only real utility leaking has to people is stuff like 'do I buy now or wait' but that can usually be determined by supply chain status dredged up by rumors sites. Sometimes it's best if we don't treat everything like we have to know it right now like every day is Information Christmas or something. [1] https://forums.macrumors.com/members/anonymous-a-s.1321969/#recent-content https://forums.macrumors.com/members/anonymous-a-s.1321969/#...
neilv 3y ago
I think I remember reading this trick in a Tom Clancy book, circa 1990. IIRC, Jack Ryan invented it. :)
moritonal 3y ago
These are infamous in gaming. Early PS5 devkits had a unique pattern on their casing. So the first time a photo of one was leaked, Sony knew who had done it. Video games have specific markers on maps to show who's footage it is. Software sometimes have dots in the bar at the top to reflect a unique user in a webstream. It's basically stenography at the end of the day.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Some Apple leakers create a 3D render instead of showing a photo in order to prevent that kind of problems. The 3D model won’t have the exact texture and design details.
- darnfish 3y ago
  This reminds me of the way Microsoft used the rings in the Xbox 360 menu to catch leakers pre-release https://www.resetera.com/threads/how-microsoft-tracked-down-nda-breakers-in-the-360-era.86398/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/how-microsoft-tracked-down-...
- flangola7 3y ago
  Map markers? Like what?
- DerekL 3y ago
  I think you mean steganography.
  - moritonal 3y ago
    You are correct, thank you. I was on my phone and dyslexia is a cruel partner.
sys_64738 3y ago
I remember at a job interview at Apple asking some of them about how they saw rumor sites. They told me they do definitely read rumors sites to see what's happening in the company. One interesting point they told me was that sometimes things are so far off that they are incredulous to the rumors. Others are so close to home that they wonder who is leaking. They declined to answer about whether any internal investigations took place.
i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago
> analyst941 had such a source, and was able to reveal numerous details about iOS 17. That includes a promise of significant changes to the Control Center, the detail that Apple Maps Lock Screen directions could get a new look, a new grid-based user interface for working with Lock Screens, revamped UIs for the Wallet and Health apps, and more. Oh wow, with such incredible upgrades coming along I’m not surprised they’re cracking down on it. /s Every so often, the hype is worth protecting. The m-series device releases and the fabled VR headset are the big ones. iPhone remains a good phone, but Apple really hasn’t done anything groundbreaking with it for some time. Nonetheless, it’s their company policy and the sister got caught red-handed, and by such simple means. I don’t know why analyst941 felt that deleting their account 24 hours after posting the thread was necessary for their safety though.
- _zzaw 3y ago
  My guess is that the account-deletion thing is them freaking out about (1) Apple's lawyers—which, assuming MacRumors's host has backups, is likely a futile gesture—and (2) random crazy people who will target them for whatever reason. Although if I were them, I'd be worried most about my sister. Putting your own career on the line for internet fame is one thing; risking someone's else's is some deeply bad shit.
josephcsible 3y ago
So while analyst941's sister was an Apple employee who signed an NDA, analyst941 was not? Then what case could Apple possibly have against analyst941?
wilg 3y ago
In this day and age, it's just more fun for me to hear what companies are working on than it is to have a "big" "surprise" once a year. Also, I love that there's drama over a leak that is so boring I can't even be bothered to look at it.
villgax 3y ago
They should go after Max Tech YouTube channel as well for propagation & interacting with the same set of sources
Uptrenda 3y ago
Imagine risking jail and massive fines just to learn details about shitty UI changes. >my face when
issung 3y ago
Guy has genuinely ruined his and his siters's life over some stupid little details about some phone operating system, was it worth it? I really don't understand the people who regular these 10 different apple-centric forums, either readers/posters. Who cares about tiny design changes or a different bevel? Go for a walk, start a family.
- wanttocomment 3y ago
  It's also funny to my how cynical the posts are in these forms. It's worse than 4chan. Do they follow them because they are fans or haters?
musicale 3y ago
> To stop secret info from slipping out, Apple silos its employees, giving them information only on a need-to-know basis. Annoying internal secrecy, open plan offices, and paying part of your salary in prestige (rather than dollars) are all things that make working at certain companies less attractive to me.
- MagicMoonlight 3y ago
  If they have this much secrecy I’d assume they don’t have open plan offices
  - musicale 3y ago
    Apple Park: https://www.macworld.com/article/670869/complete-guide-to-apple-park.html#openplanunhappiness https://www.macworld.com/article/670869/complete-guide-to-ap... (Though perhaps it has changed post-pandemic.) Also note siloing isn't only physical.

184 points by isomorph 3y ago

Again: the site's cookie selection wouldn't know what GDPR and privacy were if they came up and bit it, but dark patterns are its old friend...

CharlesW 3y ago

> It appears to be the first time Apple has used the method to catch a source of internal leaks. Definitely not. One of the infamous examples we know about is that Think Secret was forced to shut down after publishing a planted leak about a FireWire audio interface. https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_subpoenas_mac_rumor_sites_over_audio_product https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_subpoenas_mac_...

SllX 3y ago
I thought it was pretty well known in Apple circles this was one of the methods they use. I didn’t know the term for it until now though.
nntwozz 3y ago
Oh man Think Secret was juicy back in the day, it had awesome leaks. Good times.
- giobox 3y ago
  I was thinking the other day it's funny there's like an entire generation of Apple enthusiasts have now grown up not even knowing about the site, and its not like its still online as a historical thing - the quality and accuracy of some of the stories "Nick dePlume" broke was pretty amazing back then. The wikipedia page doesn't do it justice. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Secret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Secret
dgriffinjones 3y ago
From your own link: > Having failed to identify who leaked the information regarding "Asteroid", Apple requested the subpoenas in an effort to find the culprit. In that case, they used the courts to compel publishers to divulge their source. In this case, Apple’s own methods of planting a false flag among their employees caught the source. This is what the author was referring to.
- SoylentYellow 3y ago
  Apple tried to use the courts but failed. The California Appeal's court granted the publishers a protection order against revealing their sources: https://www.eff.org/cases/apple-v-does https://www.eff.org/cases/apple-v-does
- CharlesW 3y ago
  I recall reports that the leak Think Secret published was planted by Apple, but that was long ago, and most of the original reporting has disappeared. I can personally confirm that Apple wanted employees to know that planting leaks was something that Apple sometimes did, so it wasn't a huge surprise at the time.
- giobox 3y ago
  Is there any evidence the "Asteroid" device was fake for the purposes of finding a leaker? I've never heard that angle, and I'm pretty familiar with the case and followed the trial and Think Secret at the time. While it never launched, it clearly made sense as a device given Apple's recent launch of Garage Band. From what I've just searched, the only "evidence" it was a hoax appears to originate in this very speculative theory concocted on lowendmac.com that the entire thing was planned to take down the rumor industry, which seems possible but unlikely to me: > https://lowendmac.com/2006/sudden-impact-apples-great-asteroid-hoax/ https://lowendmac.com/2006/sudden-impact-apples-great-astero... The article also argues its odd for Apple not to release something that was planned, but hardware companies I imagine cancel unannounced devices all the time. Audio interfaces is a crowded space thats hard to stand out in too, even for someone like Apple. This claim alone makes me not trust the article: > "after over two years, Apple hasn’t released a breakout box for use with GarageBand... Sound suspicious? It should. If this was an important project, you’d think Apple would have gone ahead with it even after the “trade secret” of its existence was made known. You’d think they would have rushed to market to take advantage of the buzz." I can't agree with that statement at all! There are countless reasons it could have been cancelled, and it was never all that "important" to begin with. It's also written by "Anne Onymus" - believe what you will.
quitit 3y ago
I recall reading years ago that false information was always disseminated through Apple specifically for this purpose, along with many other forms of tracking and that staff knew about it specifically to limit temptation. When the goal is to stop the leak, letting staff know of the activities is more powerful than keeping the programme secret. In one example for the iPad, Business Insider reported that the device was chained to the desk and photos of the desk’s wood grain were taken to simplify singling out any leaked photos. Obviously they could refer to the wood grain later, with so few prototypes, preshooting photos isn’t needed - however it’s about conveying the message. A lot of this stuff is theatre to telegraph to staff that they risk the weight of the NDA.

webwielder2 3y ago

Never understood the motivation for leakers. Are their lives that gray?

dmbche 3y ago
My understanding is that for websites that live on leaking things from manufacturers, the person who leaks gets some of the revenue. I wouldn't be surprised they get people hired to get access to the information. Doubt it's a good way to run a profitable enterprise - but I'm sure some people do
- trzy 3y ago
  I don’t know about that. It’s usually just reporters reaching out asking you to dish in violation of your NDA for nothing in return. When I left Apple TDG, I was contacted by two reporters from well known publications on LinkedIn. I completely ignored both. Quite frankly it’s pretty upsetting that they’re so eager to put people in legal and financial jeopardy to write their stupid columns.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    Wow! I was going from their comments on the leaker being fired after this leak being done - I imagine the site has a roster or something? Or a bounty program kind of thing? Edit: hadn't read the full thing - it's just a guy that shared stuff her sister said to him for internet points - what a loser
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > I completely ignored both. That's very wise. Here's an illustrative tale, although I'm omitting details that could identify myself or the companies involved. Many years ago when I was still pretty wet behind the ears, I had just completed the sale of my company to another. This was fairly big news at the time, and my phone was ringing off the hook with reporters wanting more details. The details -- especially the sale price -- were confidential, and I was contractually prohibited from discussing them. One particularly devious reporter managed to get me involved in a "friendly" conversation talking generally (and safely) about the the two companies, then when my guard was down, asked me a question that wasn't directly about the sale price -- but my answer did tell him the general magnitude of it, which he reported. It was a huge hairy problem that took weeks to smooth over. It nearly made the deal fall through. I learned to never talk to reporters. Some of them are very, very good at their job.

yasp 3y ago

Really foolish to keep posting with details even after the sister was caught. Some people just can't help themselves.

grupthink 3y ago
If my sister was caught doing something illegal, the last thing I would do is reveal more details about her inside leaks online (that could be further used against her in court). It feels like a cautionary tale for would-be leakers inside of Apple.
- vkou 3y ago
  Generally speaking, leakers aren't very smart.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Whenever I hear people say some variant of "criminals aren't very smart", there's a part of my brain that says "how do we know? Surely the smart ones aren't getting caught so we never hear about them."
    - xoa 3y ago
      >"how do we know? Surely the smart ones aren't getting caught so we never hear about them." This only works if you exclusively consider crimes that have zero discernible external effect ("victimless crimes" in common parlance). Some percentage of copyright infringement or drug use would be good examples. But most crimes people really care about have external effects, and that is indeed precisely why they're crimes. If someone robs a house, they need not ever be caught for everyone to know a house was robbed. In turn, one can consider the ratio of crimes to criminals-caught-for-those-crimes. Further, since trials are all fully public, one can look at why exactly those criminals were caught. If most get caught, and it tends to be for stupid mistakes, then one can reasonably argue "criminals aren't very smart". Leaks by definition are self-revealing, that's the point of them. If secret information is appearing in the general world, the organization knows their are one or more leaks, even if the exact nature of them could be a number of things (ie, could be an insider, could be a partner, could be an external break-in).

pasttense01 3y ago

Did the leaker make any money out of the leaks?

porkbeer 3y ago
Unlikely

darth_avocado 3y ago

Hard way to learn that internet likes aren’t everything.

barbegal 3y ago

I remember the rumors of a 2025 release date and thinking that is oddly far into the future. If you were deeply involved in the project you would know that those dates weren't accurate so it must have been someone on the periphery. In that case the number of possible date combinations will be far fewer than the number of people who need to be informed so it seems this must have been a targeted communication to someone Apple suspected was leaking information.

junofan 3y ago
It’s a hardware company, so it’s not uncommon for software to be planned a few years out.
- MagicMoonlight 3y ago
  They plan their phones multiple years ahead. We already know the next 4 phones will have basically no difference. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re equally boring with their software.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

gnicholas 3y ago

> Leaks spoil Apple’s surprise “one-last-thing” approach to product unveilings I remember Steve doing "one last thing" announcements a long time ago, but have they done any in the post-Steve era? I can't remember the last one, TBH.

n2d4 3y ago
Apple Watch, Apple Music, and iPhone X, according to Macworld. https://www.macworld.com/article/674643/every-one-more-thing-apple-has-ever-announced.html https://www.macworld.com/article/674643/every-one-more-thing...
asimpletune 3y ago
The last one I remember was actually the Swift programming language.

dividedbyzero 3y ago

> According to analyst941’s post, Apple might take legal action against both the former employee and the tipster. Assuming the tipster is not under any NDA, is there anything Apple could take them to court for?

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Reporting on leaked documents is not a crime. Providing financial, sexual, or other incentives for leaked documents could be a crime. Publishing certain parts of leaked documents (i.e. reporting on a major breach of 1 million social security numbers, by publishing all of the leaked numbers; or reporting the Nintendo breach by posting Nintendo's source code), could be a crime or civil issue on a circumstantial basis. For groups like Wikileaks, it helps that US government documents and laws, with limited exceptions, are not copyrighted or copyrightable in the US. So when they report a huge NSA scandal and publish those documents, the government can't claim copyright infringement... but they will tear the place apart to find the leaker. And of course, spy on the reporter extremely closely for any possible legal slip-up no matter how small (or, arguably, if they hate the reporter enough, make something up).
sberens 3y ago
From the article: > Apple also requires its employees to sign nondisclosure agreements, which forbid the signees from discussing secret projects with unauthorized people. That includes other Apple employees — and most certainly anyone outside the company.
- jonny_eh 3y ago
  The tipster didn't work for Apple.
  - vulcan01 3y ago
    His sister shared the secret project with the "unauthorized person" (the tipster).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

sourcecodeplz 3y ago

Trust, honesty, secrecy, decency are difficult to find together. Edit: the sister was most likely in marketing/social

colmmacc 3y ago

Has a single significant Apple launch not leaked in the last decade? I can't think of any. With the scale of the company and corporate loyalty being what they are these days, it just seems inevitable that many things will leak. Yet Apple persist in a hyper-vigilant program of leak prevention. There's definitely still huge value in the newsworthiness of the launches. Apple get a lot of free media coverage, and for the most part the press treat the actual launches as news because that final official confirmation matters much more than tenuous leaks. But I often wonder if the top down focus on secrecy and the famous leak prevention programs are more motivated by the strong desire for focus. One of the challenges of keeping a big company effective is combating the tendency for well-meaning collaboration and suggestion making to turn into sluggish bureaucracy and committees. Secrecy a very powerful tool in optimizing a corporate culture, and reminding everyone that it is definitely not ok to share things has that big benefit too.

giobox 3y ago
> Has a single significant Apple launch not leaked in the last decade? It's not a black and white leak vs no leak situation - there are very clearly degrees of severity at play here. To use a recent example, sure we all know Apple is working on a VR headset, but there have been (to best of my knowledge) no meaningful leaks of images of the actual hardware or software; these will be a surprise on launch day, and surprises can be news worthy - helpful when trying to sell new things, or slow down the rate at which competitors build imitations.
- reaperman 3y ago
  The thing is, this didn't need to be leaked of us to know it. It was just obvious from job postings.
foverzar 3y ago
There are leaks, and then there are leaks. The former is bad for business and the latter is marketing.
- sublinear 3y ago

haney 3y ago

Can anyone recommend a book or resource for an introduction to spy craft? I’m sure there are more approaches like ‘canary traps’ that would be useful mechanisms to understand.

vermilingua 3y ago
John le Carré’s books contain many such pearls.

zyang 3y ago

You know what would the make the situation better, write up a melodramatic full admission of guilt and linked himself to his sister.

amelius 3y ago

If they can't even keep their releases a secret, how can I trust them with my data?

Nullabillity 3y ago

The tone in this comment section is, frankly, baffling. Nobody owes Apple any kind of right to control when or how their products are announced.

JohnFen 3y ago
What's baffling? It's not a matter of "owing" Apple any right. Apple already has the inherent right to control what and when they want to publicly reveal, and anyone who has signed an NDA with them has made a promise that they won't do it first.
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  > Apple already has the inherent right to control what and when they want to publicly reveal Why? This isn't PII, and the only one thing hurt by leaking it is Tim Cook's fragile ego.
  - wilg 3y ago
    I mean it's just a right to privacy really, isn't it?
    - Nullabillity 3y ago
      People have a right to privacy, corporations don't.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Legally speaking, they do. Not to the same degree as people, but still.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Whether or not harm comes of it is kinda beside the point. The point is that if you've promised not to reveal information, you've promised not to reveal information. If you do so anyway, you're in the wrong. If it's a whistleblower situation, breaking that promise can be justifiable, but leaks like this aren't that.

yalogin 3y ago

I don't get why employees leak like this. They know full well that the company does not want to reveal info and the employees are told not to leak too. I don't get what they get by leaking. In this case the girl is not even getting any money. Even if they get money it will never be enough to cover for a 6 figure salary + stock options. Such foolish people in this world throwing hard work away. If you don't believe in secrecy or believe in revealing info for what ever reason, just dont join the company, it's very simple.

mrtksn 3y ago
I think they want to feel important. Most people aren’t rational, the pay grade doesn’t change the emotional roller coaster that much because people feel bad for themselves when look up the ladder. A 500K salary and working at a prestigious company will impress a lot of people but those in that position will be exposed to the existence of much greater wealth and much more accomplished people. This will make them feel like unremarkable failure. In this particular case though, it appears than someone was just boosting to their sibling.
reaperman 3y ago
Classical "Counter-intelligence" wisdom boiled it down to the acronym "MICE". - Money - Ideology - Compromise/Coercion - Ego/Extortion Apple has about 164,000 employees - it's difficult to hire for the skills you want and also avoid any potential for these motivators. Especially when the CIA itself notes that: > While problematic personality features are essential, they are not sufficient to provoke espionage. The majority of people who have some, or even many, of the personality features described above will never engage in criminal conduct. This quote informs us that the optimum rate of leaks is not "zero" because you'd be throwing out a lot of babies with the bathwater. Basic overview: https://theconversation.com/how-ordinary-people-are-convinced-to-become-spies-166688 https://theconversation.com/how-ordinary-people-are-convince... More details on personality dysfunctions which lead to leaks: https://www.cia.gov/static/30b273c621d0896f13104ff48840b68f/psychology-of-espionage.pdf https://www.cia.gov/static/30b273c621d0896f13104ff48840b68f/... > In his memoir Carney quotes himself as asking the OSI officers arresting him “What took you so long?” (Against All Enemies, 592); he also claims to have made several attempts during the arrest to assert rights as a German citizen but was told to shut up. FBI Special Agent Robert Hanssen also contemptuously asked the FBI colleagues arresting him, “What took you so long?” Both Hanssen and Carney demonstrated the reflexive grandiosity described in the personality section of this article in this sarcastic comment. When he was arrested, Ames said, “You’re making a big mistake! You must have the wrong man!” demonstrating the automatic cunning and slipperiness characteristic of psychopaths.

npunt 3y ago

It's incredibly stupid to leak like this, plus it's a real f-you to the people working on the stuff. If I were on a product that got leaked I'd be pissed seeing my unfinished work out there. Looking at this person's past leaks[1] their eagerness for approval is on full display, and it's just a bunch of details that do nothing but diminish the magic. The only real utility leaking has to people is stuff like 'do I buy now or wait' but that can usually be determined by supply chain status dredged up by rumors sites. Sometimes it's best if we don't treat everything like we have to know it right now like every day is Information Christmas or something. [1] https://forums.macrumors.com/members/anonymous-a-s.1321969/#recent-content https://forums.macrumors.com/members/anonymous-a-s.1321969/#...

neilv 3y ago

I think I remember reading this trick in a Tom Clancy book, circa 1990. IIRC, Jack Ryan invented it. :)

moritonal 3y ago

These are infamous in gaming. Early PS5 devkits had a unique pattern on their casing. So the first time a photo of one was leaked, Sony knew who had done it. Video games have specific markers on maps to show who's footage it is. Software sometimes have dots in the bar at the top to reflect a unique user in a webstream. It's basically stenography at the end of the day.

mrtksn 3y ago
Some Apple leakers create a 3D render instead of showing a photo in order to prevent that kind of problems. The 3D model won’t have the exact texture and design details.
darnfish 3y ago
This reminds me of the way Microsoft used the rings in the Xbox 360 menu to catch leakers pre-release https://www.resetera.com/threads/how-microsoft-tracked-down-nda-breakers-in-the-360-era.86398/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/how-microsoft-tracked-down-...
flangola7 3y ago
Map markers? Like what?
DerekL 3y ago
I think you mean steganography.
- moritonal 3y ago
  You are correct, thank you. I was on my phone and dyslexia is a cruel partner.

sys_64738 3y ago

I remember at a job interview at Apple asking some of them about how they saw rumor sites. They told me they do definitely read rumors sites to see what's happening in the company. One interesting point they told me was that sometimes things are so far off that they are incredulous to the rumors. Others are so close to home that they wonder who is leaking. They declined to answer about whether any internal investigations took place.

i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago

> analyst941 had such a source, and was able to reveal numerous details about iOS 17. That includes a promise of significant changes to the Control Center, the detail that Apple Maps Lock Screen directions could get a new look, a new grid-based user interface for working with Lock Screens, revamped UIs for the Wallet and Health apps, and more. Oh wow, with such incredible upgrades coming along I’m not surprised they’re cracking down on it. /s Every so often, the hype is worth protecting. The m-series device releases and the fabled VR headset are the big ones. iPhone remains a good phone, but Apple really hasn’t done anything groundbreaking with it for some time. Nonetheless, it’s their company policy and the sister got caught red-handed, and by such simple means. I don’t know why analyst941 felt that deleting their account 24 hours after posting the thread was necessary for their safety though.

_zzaw 3y ago
My guess is that the account-deletion thing is them freaking out about (1) Apple's lawyers—which, assuming MacRumors's host has backups, is likely a futile gesture—and (2) random crazy people who will target them for whatever reason. Although if I were them, I'd be worried most about my sister. Putting your own career on the line for internet fame is one thing; risking someone's else's is some deeply bad shit.

josephcsible 3y ago

So while analyst941's sister was an Apple employee who signed an NDA, analyst941 was not? Then what case could Apple possibly have against analyst941?

wilg 3y ago

In this day and age, it's just more fun for me to hear what companies are working on than it is to have a "big" "surprise" once a year. Also, I love that there's drama over a leak that is so boring I can't even be bothered to look at it.

villgax 3y ago

They should go after Max Tech YouTube channel as well for propagation & interacting with the same set of sources

Uptrenda 3y ago

Imagine risking jail and massive fines just to learn details about shitty UI changes. >my face when

issung 3y ago

Guy has genuinely ruined his and his siters's life over some stupid little details about some phone operating system, was it worth it? I really don't understand the people who regular these 10 different apple-centric forums, either readers/posters. Who cares about tiny design changes or a different bevel? Go for a walk, start a family.

wanttocomment 3y ago
It's also funny to my how cynical the posts are in these forms. It's worse than 4chan. Do they follow them because they are fans or haters?

musicale 3y ago

> To stop secret info from slipping out, Apple silos its employees, giving them information only on a need-to-know basis. Annoying internal secrecy, open plan offices, and paying part of your salary in prestige (rather than dollars) are all things that make working at certain companies less attractive to me.

MagicMoonlight 3y ago
If they have this much secrecy I’d assume they don’t have open plan offices
- musicale 3y ago
  Apple Park: https://www.macworld.com/article/670869/complete-guide-to-apple-park.html#openplanunhappiness https://www.macworld.com/article/670869/complete-guide-to-ap... (Though perhaps it has changed post-pandemic.) Also note siloing isn't only physical.