9 ms·

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

timthelion 3y ago
Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating once meant an instant fail for the course. Twice meant you were kicked out of school and you'd have a cheating mark added to your credit transfer paper so you couldn't move your college credits elsewhere. In Czechia, getting caught cheating meant having to re-take the test. Nothing bad happened to cheaters and they cheated rampantly.
- jagtstronaut 3y ago
  I'm gonna have to go with scarface on this one. While your statements could very well be true, it is dangerous to make cultural generalizations without the data to back it.
  - wanttocomment 3y ago
    What kind of "data" would you accept for this? Crime data by demographic? Scarface just said "can't generalize to everyone" which is true and not the original point made.
- nosianu 3y ago
  This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example, or reversed the decision. Unfortunately I don't know what to search for to find these kinds of comments again. EDIT: Found one very quickly after just a little cross-reading of one cheating related thread, the reply to this linked comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 Quote: > The amount of cheating was insane. He started academic dishonesty proceedings against many of the students but the department pressured him to "work it out." It's not just the students either: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-lying-and-cheating-universities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-l...
  - wavefunction 3y ago
    Cheating might be tolerated more in the US if the student is wealthy, which might be a US student or far more likely the scion of some family in a foreign country. It has not been tolerated anywhere I've attended though.
  - trgn 3y ago
    Two things can be true at the same time. There is a lot of cheating in america, but nowhere near as much as in low-trust countries. fwiw - I think Americans value integrity a lot more than most other places, and academic cheating is not nearly as common.
    - nosianu 3y ago
      > Two things can be true at the same time. Of course, but the commenter I replied to made a specific statement, first sentence, making it sound to my reading - and I don't think I'm reading something into it that isn't meant to be there? - as if it's a lot less in the US. But even a little bit of searching, and every single time the topic comes up here, which usually is for higher education so I'm not making any statement about anything below, ends up with a lot of comments, and no opposition to them, saying there is a lot of cheating there. Examples: https://academicintegrity.org/resources/facts-and-statistics https://academicintegrity.org/resources/facts-and-statistics > McCabe’s original research and subsequent follow-up studies show that more than 60 percent of university students freely admit to cheating in some form. https://proctoredu.com/blog/tpost/5dk67zrns1-academic-dishonesty-statistics https://proctoredu.com/blog/tpost/5dk67zrns1-academic-dishon... > The level of cheating in high school according to statistics is extremely high. One of the most thorough studies, carried out by Dr. Donald McCabe, reveals that about 95% of polled students (both undergraduates and graduates) admitted to having cheated in some form. https://www.npr.org/2021/08/27/1031255390/reports-of-cheating-at-colleges-soar-during-the-pandemic https://www.npr.org/2021/08/27/1031255390/reports-of-cheatin... Therefore, it surprised my that the original commenter made such a strong statement.
      - trgn 3y ago
        thx for clarification and added links, will read up.
yCombLinks 3y ago
There's a very well studied decline in trust in America over time. Despite your snark no one claimed we never cheated etc. It's just getting much worse
- licebmi__at__ 3y ago
  Nobody claimed that americans never cheated, yet the blame of things getting worse is put on GP on those coming from “low trust” societies. It’s a xenophobic lie, like if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman”
  - kbenson 3y ago
    It may be xenophobic, but whether it's a lie is separate from that and it may or may not be. Unpalatable assertions can still be true. For what it's worth, "fake it till you make it" is far from being universally seen as positive, and (car) salesmen are seen as one of the most untrustworthy and least liked professions (just above telemarketers and members of congress). [1] 1: https://thehill.com/business/3812900-here-are-the-most-and-least-trusted-professions-in-the-us/ https://thehill.com/business/3812900-here-are-the-most-and-l...
  - mydogcanpurr 3y ago
    Do you have an alternative explanation? Or is your stance that it just couldn't possibly be immigrants?
    - licebmi__at__ 3y ago
      Maybe academic cheating is related to people pursuing a degree more like a passport to riches than a vocational pursuit. I mean, the whole reason why people also lie in other areas. Which also explains why people of “low trust” societies might lie more rather than “it’s in the culture of those dirty foreigners”.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman” Most Americans that I know don't consider those phrases to reflect positive values at all. They're used disparagingly against people who really think like that.
passion__desire 3y ago
Americans cheat at earth-scale by bringing about into existence of intricate systems that benefit them immensely.
- asimpletune 3y ago
  Yeah, I mean one thing that's interesting about the world is that every country cheats, but we all cheat in our own ways. I don't think there's anyway to get around it. That said, I don't really want American culture to continue down this "if the ends justify the means" trend that we've been on. We're not cut out for it! We'll get our lunch eaten.
  - passion__desire 3y ago
    America, as a country, is "dollar" wise and cents foolish, which is a good thing to be, if we invert the meaning of original phrase.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    America has been "going down the road" of ends justify the means since WW2. What exactly was the massacre in the Korean war and Vietnam war if not. And sanctions to starve citizens of numerous countries. Etc etc.
- trefoiled 3y ago
  Agreed, and it's also hard to consider the US as on some kind of general decline from high trust to low trust. American honesty has always been highly contextual. All it takes is a look into how we treated written agreements with Native Americans to see how small the radius of this value extends. Native societies were "high trust" in the sense that they had no ability, at least initially, to comprehend that settlers would sign an agreement with the full knowledge that they would renege on it as soon as the conditions had favorably changed. This is much more in keeping with a game theory style decision making process than anything related to an adherence to a higher moral virture or whatever. Native peoples experienced this process one by one, and eventually none trusted the word of colonialists ever again.
renewiltord 3y ago
One thing I've noticed is that many Americans have a blind spot here. You can get away with a lot of corruption and dishonest behaviour if you're the right kind of American because admitting it would be to question the idea of honesty here. That's usually why the first port of call when some corruption is detected is Finding What's Weird and the second is Not Like The Rest Of Us. San Francisco's city government is hopelessly corrupt and visibly so for someone who has lived under other obviously corrupt governments. But that is not even apparent to faraway Republicans who are the only ones who will say it is. But those people are similarly ignorant of the massive corruption of their own local government. It has taught me a new path of success for corruption: that of hiding in plain sight among those of your identity.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  If he corruption is institutional it’s not seen as cheating
- precompute 3y ago
  All successful systems sow the seeds of their own destruction.

Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating once meant an instant fail for the course. Twice meant you were kicked out of school and you'd have a cheating mark added to your credit transfer paper so you couldn't move your college credits elsewhere. In Czechia, getting caught cheating meant having to re-take the test. Nothing bad happened to cheaters and they cheated rampantly.

jagtstronaut 3y ago
I'm gonna have to go with scarface on this one. While your statements could very well be true, it is dangerous to make cultural generalizations without the data to back it.
- wanttocomment 3y ago
  What kind of "data" would you accept for this? Crime data by demographic? Scarface just said "can't generalize to everyone" which is true and not the original point made.
nosianu 3y ago
This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example, or reversed the decision. Unfortunately I don't know what to search for to find these kinds of comments again. EDIT: Found one very quickly after just a little cross-reading of one cheating related thread, the reply to this linked comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 Quote: > The amount of cheating was insane. He started academic dishonesty proceedings against many of the students but the department pressured him to "work it out." It's not just the students either: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-lying-and-cheating-universities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-l...
- wavefunction 3y ago
  Cheating might be tolerated more in the US if the student is wealthy, which might be a US student or far more likely the scion of some family in a foreign country. It has not been tolerated anywhere I've attended though.
- trgn 3y ago
  Two things can be true at the same time. There is a lot of cheating in america, but nowhere near as much as in low-trust countries. fwiw - I think Americans value integrity a lot more than most other places, and academic cheating is not nearly as common.
  - nosianu 3y ago
    > Two things can be true at the same time. Of course, but the commenter I replied to made a specific statement, first sentence, making it sound to my reading - and I don't think I'm reading something into it that isn't meant to be there? - as if it's a lot less in the US. But even a little bit of searching, and every single time the topic comes up here, which usually is for higher education so I'm not making any statement about anything below, ends up with a lot of comments, and no opposition to them, saying there is a lot of cheating there. Examples: https://academicintegrity.org/resources/facts-and-statistics https://academicintegrity.org/resources/facts-and-statistics > McCabe’s original research and subsequent follow-up studies show that more than 60 percent of university students freely admit to cheating in some form. https://proctoredu.com/blog/tpost/5dk67zrns1-academic-dishonesty-statistics https://proctoredu.com/blog/tpost/5dk67zrns1-academic-dishon... > The level of cheating in high school according to statistics is extremely high. One of the most thorough studies, carried out by Dr. Donald McCabe, reveals that about 95% of polled students (both undergraduates and graduates) admitted to having cheated in some form. https://www.npr.org/2021/08/27/1031255390/reports-of-cheating-at-colleges-soar-during-the-pandemic https://www.npr.org/2021/08/27/1031255390/reports-of-cheatin... Therefore, it surprised my that the original commenter made such a strong statement.
    - trgn 3y ago
      thx for clarification and added links, will read up.

yCombLinks 3y ago

There's a very well studied decline in trust in America over time. Despite your snark no one claimed we never cheated etc. It's just getting much worse

licebmi__at__ 3y ago
Nobody claimed that americans never cheated, yet the blame of things getting worse is put on GP on those coming from “low trust” societies. It’s a xenophobic lie, like if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman”
- kbenson 3y ago
  It may be xenophobic, but whether it's a lie is separate from that and it may or may not be. Unpalatable assertions can still be true. For what it's worth, "fake it till you make it" is far from being universally seen as positive, and (car) salesmen are seen as one of the most untrustworthy and least liked professions (just above telemarketers and members of congress). [1] 1: https://thehill.com/business/3812900-here-are-the-most-and-least-trusted-professions-in-the-us/ https://thehill.com/business/3812900-here-are-the-most-and-l...
- mydogcanpurr 3y ago
  Do you have an alternative explanation? Or is your stance that it just couldn't possibly be immigrants?
  - licebmi__at__ 3y ago
    Maybe academic cheating is related to people pursuing a degree more like a passport to riches than a vocational pursuit. I mean, the whole reason why people also lie in other areas. Which also explains why people of “low trust” societies might lie more rather than “it’s in the culture of those dirty foreigners”.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman” Most Americans that I know don't consider those phrases to reflect positive values at all. They're used disparagingly against people who really think like that.

passion__desire 3y ago

Americans cheat at earth-scale by bringing about into existence of intricate systems that benefit them immensely.

asimpletune 3y ago
Yeah, I mean one thing that's interesting about the world is that every country cheats, but we all cheat in our own ways. I don't think there's anyway to get around it. That said, I don't really want American culture to continue down this "if the ends justify the means" trend that we've been on. We're not cut out for it! We'll get our lunch eaten.
- passion__desire 3y ago
  America, as a country, is "dollar" wise and cents foolish, which is a good thing to be, if we invert the meaning of original phrase.
- kelipso 3y ago
  America has been "going down the road" of ends justify the means since WW2. What exactly was the massacre in the Korean war and Vietnam war if not. And sanctions to starve citizens of numerous countries. Etc etc.
trefoiled 3y ago
Agreed, and it's also hard to consider the US as on some kind of general decline from high trust to low trust. American honesty has always been highly contextual. All it takes is a look into how we treated written agreements with Native Americans to see how small the radius of this value extends. Native societies were "high trust" in the sense that they had no ability, at least initially, to comprehend that settlers would sign an agreement with the full knowledge that they would renege on it as soon as the conditions had favorably changed. This is much more in keeping with a game theory style decision making process than anything related to an adherence to a higher moral virture or whatever. Native peoples experienced this process one by one, and eventually none trusted the word of colonialists ever again.

renewiltord 3y ago

One thing I've noticed is that many Americans have a blind spot here. You can get away with a lot of corruption and dishonest behaviour if you're the right kind of American because admitting it would be to question the idea of honesty here. That's usually why the first port of call when some corruption is detected is Finding What's Weird and the second is Not Like The Rest Of Us. San Francisco's city government is hopelessly corrupt and visibly so for someone who has lived under other obviously corrupt governments. But that is not even apparent to faraway Republicans who are the only ones who will say it is. But those people are similarly ignorant of the massive corruption of their own local government. It has taught me a new path of success for corruption: that of hiding in plain sight among those of your identity.

throw9away6 3y ago
If he corruption is institutional it’s not seen as cheating
precompute 3y ago
All successful systems sow the seeds of their own destruction.