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Microsoft Bets That Fusion Power Is Closer Than Many Think
- PaulHoule 3y agoGates might also be the most enthusiastic person about fast breeder reactors as he has put a lot of effort and money into SMRs, breed-and-burn fuel cycles, and making up the for the high cost of a three-stage heat transfer system by using the intermediate coolant to store energy ahead of time.
- deadeye 3y agoWorth watching about Helion: https://youtu.be/_bDXXWQxK38 https://youtu.be/_bDXXWQxK38
- bob1029 3y agoAgreed - I had no idea they were skipping the steam/turbine stuff. This is a compelling concept because it looks like it could actually scale.
- maeln 3y agoThe response by Improbable Matter is also interesting in its own right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw
- lillecarl 3y agoThunderf00t, YouTubes own cynic also made a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3VGDCa9fZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3VGDCa9fZg We know we can achieve fusion, but as far as I'm informed we still don't know that we can take more energy out than we put in.
- thangalin 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_energy_gain_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_energy_gain_factor > On December 13, 2022, the United States Department of Energy announced that NIF had exceeded the previously elusive Q ≥ 1 milestone on December 5, 2022. This was achieved by producing 3.15 MJ after delivering 2.05 MJ to the target, for an equivalent Q of 1.54.
- audunw 3y agoNo.. just no. Don't watch anything by Thunderf00t. It has been too many times now that he has clearly put out just the lowest effort thing he can make to "debunk" some topic. Doesn't matter. People will view his videos anyway. I think "debunking" channels are inherently problematic because they attract viewers who like to feel smart, but don't actually want to deeply understand a topic. The conclusion is already pre-determined. The topic has to be debunked. Improbable Matters video is.. OK. He raises some valid concerns. I think he was genuinely trying to understand and critisize the technology honostly. Though it seems he misunderstands some key facts. I've never seen that kind of honesty with Thunderf00t.
- audunw 3y agoThen you should also read this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/10g95m9/comment/j67i9fh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/10g95m9/comment/j67... From what I can gather a lot of Improbable Matter's critisism is based on misunderstandings or flawed understanding of Helion's specific approach. But yes, it's a good watch if you don't blindly trust his conclusions.
- ThomPete 3y agoFusion is not just another way to power our lightbulbs it's a completely different kind of energy. Two unique properties of energy density like Fusion. 1. The ability to hit 10% of the speed of light in space 2. The ability to create fundamental elements like gold, silver etc. Another good example of the fact that there are no scarcity of resources only scarcity of knowledge. Resources are created not found. Edit: Why am I being downvoted?
- tasty_freeze 3y agoFusion releases energy when producing items lighter than iron. It requires energy to create atoms heavier than iron via fusion. It would cost huge amounts of money to produce an ounce of silver or gold that way.
- xenonite 3y agoHowever, the gold standard is no more.
- ThomPete 3y agoI am not talking about tomorrow. I am talking about the potential of what you can do with the energy density.
- nradov 3y agoRegardless of energy density, creating gold in a fusion reactor will still be more expensive than digging it out of the ground. We are far from exhausting that natural resource.
- ThomPete 3y agoAgain yes, but that's not the point. The point is you can't do that with any other energy source.
- HappySweeney 3y ago
- avalys 3y agoGiven that Helios hasn’t demonstrated production of any amount of energy from fusion, this is probably just bullshit, like the United “order” for supersonic jets from Boom a few months ago. Similarly, Boom has not even flown a prototype yet.
- justrealist 3y agoHelios is building real facilities. Maybe it won't work, but it's not just drafting CAD templates — they are deploying capital into physical reactors. That's not bullshit.
- DennisP 3y agoNot only that but the reactor they're building now is their seventh. They kept their previous reactor under vacuum for 16 months, did thousands of fusion pulses, and achieved 100 million degree plasma temperatures. https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/ending-trenta-operations/ https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/ending-trenta-operatio...
- emaginniss 3y agoI'm not sure why you're so negative on a business model that has worked for tech startups for decades now. Many businesses have started by promising to fix a problem experienced by a larger entity. Along with product guidance, the startup often gets capital in the form of investment. The larger company gets a low-risk attempt to solve their problem with the possibility of upside in the case of a larger than expected success.
- asdfman123 3y agoPutting gas into my car is a good idea, but putting gas into my dog isn’t quite so reasonable.
- kevmo314 3y agoThe larger company's involvement feels closer to nepotism. If Helion actually pulls off productive fusion, Microsoft will buy the power regardless. Same with Boom, if their jet really is efficient, United would buy one no matter what because it makes business sense. Signaling like this feels more like a marketing campaign to investors rather than a signal of potential.
- dotBen 3y agoGiven the implications of this technology I wonder how much development is actually being done "in the open". And therefore how close to a breakthrough we are, whether a breakthrough has already occured and we are being fed delayed findings, and ultimately how a private organization like Microsoft would truly be able to access matured tech. Whether by incentive or by coercion, it feels like the DOD and the DOE would want to have first access to any breakthroughs and also guard knowledge transfers (ie protect any program - commerical or government - from foreign state espionage). The DOE is basically an entire national security organization centered around nuclear security, it seems unlikely they would be standing by watching R&D in fusion occur without a seat at the table.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoDisruption outside of the government eye is common, I wouldn’t be surprised. Those organizations focus on nuclear weapons tech.
- dotBen 3y agoDOE also covers domestic nuclear power generation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_...
- DennisP 3y agoAnd the NRC regulates civilian nuclear reactors. Recently, the NRC commissioners unanimously decided to regulate fusion reactors like particle accelerators rather than like fission reactors, which is very favorable to rapidly building out fusion reactors once they become available. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/20/nuclear-fusion-will-not-be-regulated-the-same-way-nuclear-fission-is.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/20/nuclear-fusion-will-not-be-r...
- aaronblohowiak 3y agoAre most fusion reactor designs a national security concern? I am not a nuclear physicist but from my rudimentary understanding of most modern approaches I don’t see how they would help with bad stuff (other than creating material for a dirty bomb through waste perhaps)
- causi 3y agoMicrosoft Bets That Fusion Power Is Closer Than Many Think "Bet" implies a potential for loss. This is a couch-cushion spare change level "bet". Microsoft probably spends more on printer ink every month than they stand to lose on this bet.
- chx 3y agohttps://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/microsoft-agrees-to-buy-power-from-sam-altman-backed-helion-in-2028.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/microsoft-agrees-to-buy-powe... > Helion’s deal with Microsoft is to get 50 megawatts online, Looking at solar costs https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/capital-costs-of-utility-scale-solar-pv-in-selected-emerging-economies https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/capital-costs... 50MW in solar would cost 50-100M and I can't imagine this could be much more expensive or it wouldn't be competitive at all. Microsoft annual operating expenses for 2022 were $114.887B so about a 1-2000 times more.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoIt's a power purchase agreement. They're going to get ~$50M worth of power. Either they're going to overpay for Fusion or overpay for energy from some other source if Helion can't deliver and has to pay for it via penalty. It's not really much of a risk for MSFT. But it's a great headline for Helion to pass on to clueless people.
- steve1977 3y agoIs that why they keep developing stuff with Electron?
- burkaman 3y agoDo they really believe that, or are they just trying to look greener and make their carbon negative commitment look more real? > “We wouldn’t enter into this agreement if we were not optimistic that engineering advances are gaining momentum,” said Microsoft President Brad Smith. Why not? What's the downside for Microsoft, even if they think this probably won't happen by 2028? They even get paid "penalties" if Helion doesn't deliver.
- asdfman123 3y ago> are they just trying to look greener Absolutely not! They’re also trying to look cutting edge.
- markus_zhang 3y agoIf we get fusion power and ai and longevity up in next 10-20 years it's going to be nightmare for ordinary people. Yeah, nightmare, not paradise.
- HPsquared 3y agoNot fully automated luxury space communism?
- euroderf 3y agoStill working out the kinks in the requirements spec.
- slothtrop 3y agoA rapid transition would necessitate the need for legislative/policy changes. People aren't going to complacently waddle in "nightmares". Workers already feel priced out of the housing market, just add it to the pile.
- nradov 3y agoThere will be no rapid transition. Even if Helion's design actually works (and it might not), the plants will be expensive to construct. It would take decades to scale up production.
- partiallypro 3y agoI don't see the fusion argument, but I can see the AI argument at least temporarily making lives worse. What is the argument that fusion power would? It would definitely destabilize countries like Saudi Arabia, but otherwise seems like a win. Even still you have to have petroleum products for most anything and everything.
- markus_zhang 3y agoIn my model I don't segment people by countries. I segment them by classes -- peasants and aristocrats. So actually, I wouldn't worry about Saudian aristocrats because I'm sure they will prosper as long as they plan accordingly.
- lisasays 3y agohttps://archive.ph/oYpP6 https://archive.ph/oYpP6
- throwuwu 3y agoSounds like someone has been talking to the base model
- gumballindie 3y agoWe just need to redefine fusion and we have it.
- user6723 3y agoThe Safire plasma has self-containing magnetic fields and does not require artificial magnet infrastructure. Safire plasma can stay "lit" at under 240 watts of power input almost indefinitely. Here is some raw video of plasma in a Safire chamber vaporizing a tungsten rod https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y46wMAHnsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y46wMAHnsI