10 ms·

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust socie

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected and that it wouldn't matter anyway because in the workforce I'd excel and they would not, so why did I care? After entering the workforce I encountered many many resumes, especially from contract houses / body shops, that were obviously lies, and have interviewed thousands of candidates across my career that clearly lied on their resume. My basic take is that low trust societies encourage cheating and dishonesty and think if you're honest and honorable that you're a naive rube asking to be taken advantage of. For my part, I've never cheated in any interview, in anything at school, and never lied on my resume, yet being in tech which is dominated by people who originate in low trust societies, I see how it becomes something insidious that creates extremely negative behavioral norms in corporate politics, where it's now acceptable for people to bald-face lie about project status, receipt of information, or the severity of an issue if it gets them ahead or makes someone else look bad and deflects the blame. Luckily, my professor was right though, despite exposure to a lot of negative behaviors I don't like, don't respect, and don't endorse, I did excel and I continue to excel above my peers, especially those who cheated. Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society due to cultural shifts aligned to low trust societies we do business with. The Blind app demographics make it unsurprising to see this there or that it's essentially universally supported in the comments there. I am honestly unsurprised that most of the comments on HN support it. There's absolutely an attitude of "lie now, and figure out how to make it not a lie before investors or customers notice" in the startup world as well. Frankly, it disappoints me deeply that so much our society has become one big grift, especially as someone who entered the tech industry when it was still dominated by honest nerds doing cool stuff.

scarface74 3y ago
Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…
- timthelion 3y ago
  Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating once meant an instant fail for the course. Twice meant you were kicked out of school and you'd have a cheating mark added to your credit transfer paper so you couldn't move your college credits elsewhere. In Czechia, getting caught cheating meant having to re-take the test. Nothing bad happened to cheaters and they cheated rampantly.
  - jagtstronaut 3y ago
    I'm gonna have to go with scarface on this one. While your statements could very well be true, it is dangerous to make cultural generalizations without the data to back it.
    - wanttocomment 3y ago
      What kind of "data" would you accept for this? Crime data by demographic? Scarface just said "can't generalize to everyone" which is true and not the original point made.
  - nosianu 3y ago
    This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example, or reversed the decision. Unfortunately I don't know what to search for to find these kinds of comments again. EDIT: Found one very quickly after just a little cross-reading of one cheating related thread, the reply to this linked comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 Quote: > The amount of cheating was insane. He started academic dishonesty proceedings against many of the students but the department pressured him to "work it out." It's not just the students either: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-lying-and-cheating-universities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-l...
hoosieree 3y ago
This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious deficiencies", so being able to retreat to domains where there are "obviously no deficiencies" is a treat.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  Yup. I've gravitated towards difficult domains in my career because they serve as a very effective filter on the people actually applying for them, they keep me sharp, and people that have needs in these areas tend to less of the stereotypical "idea people," that are looking to milk those who can execute.
  - ghostbrainalpha 3y ago
    Can you give any examples of those difficult domains? I'm an ok-ish web developer, and would love to fine some niches to specialize in like you mentioned.
    - mattgreenrocks 3y ago
      * Deep systems programming (this one is losing its "hard" luster a bit with Rust, which I'm okay with) * Compilers/DSLs/language runtimes/static analysis * Distributed systems (on my list of things to learn, know basically nothing) * More generically: high-performance code, doesn't have to be fintech-fast, but designing and maintaining code that makes excellent use of hardware resources
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    While what you say is true, my experience at such jobs is they also tend to have the most dysfunctional people/teams, unfortunately. And career growth tends to be very stagnant, and working conditions are poor (the supply of labor exceeds the demand). Switching to "dumb" jobs made my life a lot happier. While it's easier, the demand exceeds the supply. Easier career growth, and better colleagues (no egos, etc).
asimpletune 3y ago
> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  The post-pandemic economic environment is toxic. Everyone seems to have come out of the pandemic convinced that they need to tighten whatever screws they have to get theirs. And that triggers other people to do the same thing. Cheating enters the realm of possibility because people (correctly and incorrectly) believe others are doing the same thing. It's gross and feeds on itself. I'm not sure what will help it get better.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    It's pretty simple. There are few incentives for integrity and few disincentives for lack thereof. This shows up in all kind of contexts - from business leaders, to social media "influencers", to athletes, to politicians. I'm not sure why anyone would expect "the average Joe" to maintain some semblance of integrity when very few successful individuals do the same. The overall message is pretty clear - if you want to succeed, you will need to cheat.
    - throw9away6 3y ago
      People that don’t cheat much think that cheating is easy. Often times I see cheaters put in almost the same amount of effort as non cheaters the cheaters just get a higher probability of success.
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
        But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted
laratied 3y ago
It is disappointing philosophically but I would imagine how the game theory of this works out strategically if really trying to play an optimal strategy is "always cheat". There just such asymmetry between the risks vs payouts. Sadly, I imagine your professor was simply wrong. Most likely even for you there is something you could cheat/lie about that would be practically undetectable and give a huge payout for almost no risk. This is also why a level of a self delusion is an advantage in our system too. Then you get the benefits of cheating/lies without even knowing it or having to intentionally cheat/lie. "Cheating ultimately cheats oneself" sounds right but just isn't reality.
dev_tty01 3y ago
I had a fantastic thermodynamics instructor in undergrad school. He was from a rough part of a city in Iran. At the beginning of the course, he told us his policy on cheating, which was zero tolerance. He added that he had seen every kind of cheating and dishonesty in his neighborhood growing up and there was no way anyone in that class would get away with anything because he had seen it all. It was a great course. At any rate, being from a "low trust society" can also motivate someone to go in the other direction because they have seen the injustice that is a consequence of cheating and dishonesty.
- leidenfrost 3y ago
  I don't know where are you from, but there's a difference between wanting to be different by leaving your community and going to another place, and trying to be different from your social circle yet staying there. If he stayed, he wouldn't have been as successful as he is now.
- scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
  This. Low-trust countries generate an outflow of people in the direction of first-world countries. This is an incredible talent-pool of disciplined and motivated idealists and a lot of the technological IP that gives an upper hand to Western economies comes from this process. Personally, my parents are such people - they left Poland in the 1970’s and excelled in America. One of the best things that our country has done since is that we have climbed into a higher-trust category in the 90’s. This has gradually limited that brain drain mechanic. While things aren’t perfect, there are far fewer such people leaving our economy and it has done wonders. However, everywhere in the world this is a continuous battle that will always have to be fought and won over and over again. The lying and the cheating always creeps back into every system.
wanttocomment 3y ago
Absolutely. Values such as "it's wrong even if nobody gets hurt or finds out" are not universally held. Besides differences in culture, there is almost no liberal arts education in places like India.
gs17 3y ago
> When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected . The reality (speaking from experience) may be that international students are a lucrative market and getting a reputation as being hard on cheating will make them choose to go elsewhere.
- kelipso 3y ago
  Yep, I know for a fact the higher ups tell (heavily imply to) the professors/lecturers to go easy on the undergrad international students with cheating and other behaviors at least in the smaller US colleges.
  - guhidalg 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - pverghese 3y ago
      Why are you calling for segregation? We have didn't years trying to move the world forward and yet you persist in trying to move backwards
      - guhidalg 3y ago
        We discriminate tuition based on national (even state!) origin. That's not physical segregation but it has the same result. I'm calling for schools to just create a "international student focused" campus where they can collect all the rich international students, let them party and cheat for 4 years, collect the outrageous tuition, and shield the indigenous students from their bullshit.
    - dang 3y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Fortunately, most of your comments have been fine so this should be easy to fix. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
wavefunction 3y ago
I'd only roast you for misunderstanding the "problem" to be solved. It's not that the societies are "low-trust" but that the cost of being caught for cheating is that you continue with the life already available to you or you win a golden ticket if you're not caught. It's a no-brainer. There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to and what's the maxim about good programmers, they're so lazy they'll figure out a work-around to save themselves some time? Even if it's stuff they know already? Once you're into the system there are mutual shared interests and political efforts that can support such a career.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to It's a shame that being a decent person is not sufficient reason.
  - throw9away6 3y ago
    Many generations of people before us ended up prematurely dead by being decent people while others cheated
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      And many generations of people before us ended up prematurely dead by cheating, as well.
- tristor 3y ago
  You essentially just described the difference between low-trust and high-trust societies. In low-trust societies because minimal trust exists, violating trust has minimal consequences. With high-trust societies, losing trust has heavy consequences, because you've violated an expected social norm and it creates reputational damage.
mc32 3y ago
I had classmates from France which would be middling in the social trust spectrum -boy oh boy, did they cheat on homework and exams. Same for Koreans and Chinese, but Japanese didn't cheat (or at least I didn't notice).
tru3_power 3y ago
What’s even more depressing is when these liars and cheats ultimately run out of time (people start realizing) they just hop ship.
- ghostbrainalpha 3y ago
  Which is super encouraged by the standard, "you should be switching jobs every 2 years to maximize your wage".
psygn89 3y ago
It's the "fake it 'til you make it" and "good artists copy, great artists steal" mentality that some people really stretch and abuse the meaning of to lift any guilty conscience they would otherwise have, and think "if you can't win, then join 'em".
_puk 3y ago
According to game theory [0], it all comes right in the end.. Sadly, the time horizon is far too long, and the individual short term benefit far too high for this to be (currently) working out as hoped.. 0: https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/
- asimpletune 3y ago
  I looked at this and followed the whole thing. So good and interesting. It basically implies that one of the keys to a trusting society is repeated interactions and low "mistakes", I.e. things that can be perceived as evil even though they're just honest mistakes. This is why it's important for in politics and media for them to police their own behavior, because without it there are too many mistakes for a trusting society. One thing that isn't shown though in the games sandbox mode is for the players to be able to change the rules and reward structures, which is more akin to our society. This would create a much more hard to predict dynamic.
jimmydddd 3y ago
This just reminded me of a comment from my father from like 40 years ago. He was a civil engineer who designed waste water treatment plants when the US was funding it in the '70's (clean water act). Apparently there was some huge water treatment plant project in India at that time, and everyone he interviewed from that area said they had been in charge of the project.
JohnFen 3y ago
> it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I strongly disagree with that professor. Dishonesty does not have to be, and absolutely should not be, respected. Even if it is a "cultural difference" [citation required].
- bumby 3y ago
  >"absolutely should not be, respected" Taking issue with the 'absolute' part: The cultural context does impact what gets respected, though. For example, having an organization that avoids nepotism is generally respected in the U.S. There are other countries/cultures that do not, at least to the same degree. From their perspective, the more respectable act is to help out those in your tribe/family when you are in a position to do so.
  - frumper 3y ago
    Parent specifically said dishonesty should not be respected. Helping people in your family/community is a fine goal as long as it’s not dishonest. If Bob gets hired at global corp A and is able to hire his unqualified family to the detriment of corp A then that’s just as bad. If they’re qualified then there might be a culture clash, but it doesn’t sound necessarily dishonest.
    - bumby 3y ago
      Fair enough. I maybe unfairly characterized both "dishonesty" and "nepotism" as a display of lack of integrity (by the Western definition, which tends to bias toward meritocratic values). “Dishonest” from the standpoint of deviating from the social contract of unbiased and meritocratic hiring.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        I don't see nepotism as being dishonest. It may be unseemly or unfair (or not, depending on culture), but it's not dishonest.
raghudotcc 3y ago
I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of students cheat, but that's true of students from other countries(like US, Uk, etc) as well. I know this from my experience as a TA. I love computer science and so do many of my friends. Edit: I should also add that I realize by low-trust OP meant the academic term for kinship-based society but my worry is that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that gets its image tarnished because of various other reasons like low-wage labour and tech scams might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent
- pkdpic 3y ago
  I was happy to see this comment but expected to see it much higher up. "low-trust" is obviously an established term but it's really giving me a bad feeling here. These are enormously diverse cultures and we only see a very specific filtered set of demographics that end up in the US / West.
- archagon 3y ago
  Not OP, but to be clear, "low trust society" has a specific sociological meaning relating to interpersonal trust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie... It doesn't mean that individuals from that society are less trustworthy.
  - raghudotcc 3y ago
    I realized that’s what they meant but I was worried that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that has a tarnished image because of tech scams and low-wage tech workers might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent.
    - 3y ago
netfortius 3y ago
I assume such events are fairly common, at least in the US. I was once colleague with a [nationality to be preserved, to avoid expanded blame] guy in a CS graduate program, in the US, who had his sister (yes - different gender!) sitting a few exams for him, and passing them, of course.
giantg2 3y ago
I mean, I do see the appeal. I would guess it's better to cheat and be successful than to be honorable and be a failure. I can say that the latter really sucks.
politician 3y ago
> Luckily, my professor was right though... The explanation provided by the professor assuaged your concerns, but their salary was funded in part from the tuitions paid by the cheaters. The 'grift' is a collaboration between the academic institutions that tolerate cheating and award degrees and GPA scores, and the cheating students that game the process.
dumbotron 3y ago
> [cheating] was a cultural difference that had to be respected What he meant to say was "they pay sticker price"
msie 3y ago
To add my two bits: I don't support it.
lamontcg 3y ago
> it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society due to cultural shifts aligned to low trust societies we do business with Pull the bandaid off and just admit it -- we're just becoming one of those "low trust societies". And it has nothing to do with who we're doing business with, and it is due to our own culture.
BeetleB 3y ago
> Luckily, my professor was right though, despite exposure to a lot of negative behaviors I don't like, don't respect, and don't endorse, I did excel and I continue to excel above my peers, especially those who cheated. Disagree from my experience. When I was a TA in grad school, I had a PhD student who clearly had access to the instructor's solution manual. His answers were copied verbatim. If the solution's manual had an error, so did his answer. If the professor assigned a problem not from the book, he wouldn't answer it. I debated reporting him to the professor, but didn't want the drama and figured what your professor did: He'll do poorly on the exams (I was right), and poorly in the work place. He got his PhD, got a fairly senior position, and quickly rose to be the director of a well known company's research division. He probably was smart - he did get the PhD from a top ranked university. But I strongly suspect he gamed the system at his company just as he gamed the system there. In grad school, I had a close friend. Clearly a very bright, skilled guy. Was kicked out of the PhD program when it was discovered he had been fabricating data (Nature was right about to publish his paper when he got discovered). He went off to another top ranked university and got his PhD in the same area. I don't know how/why he had the balls to do it, as surely his former advisor would be in close proximity (conferences, etc) - and at least within my university his advisor was quite open about my friend's malfeasance. He then got a research position at the top company in his field. Got promotions, and then quit and founded a startup that is doing well, and is known to some in this crowd here. If all goes to plan, he'll have his exit and be quite rich. Now I don't know if he cheated in his second PhD or on the job, and I'm still in touch with him. But ... no - cheaters often continue to do well after graduating.
- 11101010001100 3y ago
  Reminds of the billionaire who cheated in chess against Vishy.
darth_avocado 3y ago
Not endorsing cheating, but in the real world, everyone cheats. Somehow looking up answers in exams is considered cheating, but hiring your buddies (which is very prevalent in tech) for positions they aren’t the best candidates for is not. Everyone cheats, but somehow calling specific societies as low trust while ignoring similar behavior in others is not fair. It’s the same philosophy of “it’s not bribing it’s lobbying.”
mock-possum 3y ago
> folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I mean I'm sympathetic to your experience, the treatment you're describing is unfair, but... that also sounds pretty racist.
skanga 3y ago
[flagged]

scarface74 3y ago

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

timthelion 3y ago
Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating once meant an instant fail for the course. Twice meant you were kicked out of school and you'd have a cheating mark added to your credit transfer paper so you couldn't move your college credits elsewhere. In Czechia, getting caught cheating meant having to re-take the test. Nothing bad happened to cheaters and they cheated rampantly.
- jagtstronaut 3y ago
  I'm gonna have to go with scarface on this one. While your statements could very well be true, it is dangerous to make cultural generalizations without the data to back it.
  - wanttocomment 3y ago
    What kind of "data" would you accept for this? Crime data by demographic? Scarface just said "can't generalize to everyone" which is true and not the original point made.
- nosianu 3y ago
  This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example, or reversed the decision. Unfortunately I don't know what to search for to find these kinds of comments again. EDIT: Found one very quickly after just a little cross-reading of one cheating related thread, the reply to this linked comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086 Quote: > The amount of cheating was insane. He started academic dishonesty proceedings against many of the students but the department pressured him to "work it out." It's not just the students either: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-lying-and-cheating-universities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-l...

hoosieree 3y ago

This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious deficiencies", so being able to retreat to domains where there are "obviously no deficiencies" is a treat.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
Yup. I've gravitated towards difficult domains in my career because they serve as a very effective filter on the people actually applying for them, they keep me sharp, and people that have needs in these areas tend to less of the stereotypical "idea people," that are looking to milk those who can execute.
- ghostbrainalpha 3y ago
  Can you give any examples of those difficult domains? I'm an ok-ish web developer, and would love to fine some niches to specialize in like you mentioned.
  - mattgreenrocks 3y ago
    * Deep systems programming (this one is losing its "hard" luster a bit with Rust, which I'm okay with) * Compilers/DSLs/language runtimes/static analysis * Distributed systems (on my list of things to learn, know basically nothing) * More generically: high-performance code, doesn't have to be fintech-fast, but designing and maintaining code that makes excellent use of hardware resources
- BeetleB 3y ago
  While what you say is true, my experience at such jobs is they also tend to have the most dysfunctional people/teams, unfortunately. And career growth tends to be very stagnant, and working conditions are poor (the supply of labor exceeds the demand). Switching to "dumb" jobs made my life a lot happier. While it's easier, the demand exceeds the supply. Easier career growth, and better colleagues (no egos, etc).

asimpletune 3y ago

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
The post-pandemic economic environment is toxic. Everyone seems to have come out of the pandemic convinced that they need to tighten whatever screws they have to get theirs. And that triggers other people to do the same thing. Cheating enters the realm of possibility because people (correctly and incorrectly) believe others are doing the same thing. It's gross and feeds on itself. I'm not sure what will help it get better.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  It's pretty simple. There are few incentives for integrity and few disincentives for lack thereof. This shows up in all kind of contexts - from business leaders, to social media "influencers", to athletes, to politicians. I'm not sure why anyone would expect "the average Joe" to maintain some semblance of integrity when very few successful individuals do the same. The overall message is pretty clear - if you want to succeed, you will need to cheat.
  - throw9away6 3y ago
    People that don’t cheat much think that cheating is easy. Often times I see cheaters put in almost the same amount of effort as non cheaters the cheaters just get a higher probability of success.
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted

laratied 3y ago

It is disappointing philosophically but I would imagine how the game theory of this works out strategically if really trying to play an optimal strategy is "always cheat". There just such asymmetry between the risks vs payouts. Sadly, I imagine your professor was simply wrong. Most likely even for you there is something you could cheat/lie about that would be practically undetectable and give a huge payout for almost no risk. This is also why a level of a self delusion is an advantage in our system too. Then you get the benefits of cheating/lies without even knowing it or having to intentionally cheat/lie. "Cheating ultimately cheats oneself" sounds right but just isn't reality.

dev_tty01 3y ago

I had a fantastic thermodynamics instructor in undergrad school. He was from a rough part of a city in Iran. At the beginning of the course, he told us his policy on cheating, which was zero tolerance. He added that he had seen every kind of cheating and dishonesty in his neighborhood growing up and there was no way anyone in that class would get away with anything because he had seen it all. It was a great course. At any rate, being from a "low trust society" can also motivate someone to go in the other direction because they have seen the injustice that is a consequence of cheating and dishonesty.

leidenfrost 3y ago
I don't know where are you from, but there's a difference between wanting to be different by leaving your community and going to another place, and trying to be different from your social circle yet staying there. If he stayed, he wouldn't have been as successful as he is now.
scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
This. Low-trust countries generate an outflow of people in the direction of first-world countries. This is an incredible talent-pool of disciplined and motivated idealists and a lot of the technological IP that gives an upper hand to Western economies comes from this process. Personally, my parents are such people - they left Poland in the 1970’s and excelled in America. One of the best things that our country has done since is that we have climbed into a higher-trust category in the 90’s. This has gradually limited that brain drain mechanic. While things aren’t perfect, there are far fewer such people leaving our economy and it has done wonders. However, everywhere in the world this is a continuous battle that will always have to be fought and won over and over again. The lying and the cheating always creeps back into every system.

wanttocomment 3y ago

Absolutely. Values such as "it's wrong even if nobody gets hurt or finds out" are not universally held. Besides differences in culture, there is almost no liberal arts education in places like India.

gs17 3y ago

> When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected . The reality (speaking from experience) may be that international students are a lucrative market and getting a reputation as being hard on cheating will make them choose to go elsewhere.

kelipso 3y ago
Yep, I know for a fact the higher ups tell (heavily imply to) the professors/lecturers to go easy on the undergrad international students with cheating and other behaviors at least in the smaller US colleges.
- guhidalg 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - pverghese 3y ago
    Why are you calling for segregation? We have didn't years trying to move the world forward and yet you persist in trying to move backwards
    - guhidalg 3y ago
      We discriminate tuition based on national (even state!) origin. That's not physical segregation but it has the same result. I'm calling for schools to just create a "international student focused" campus where they can collect all the rich international students, let them party and cheat for 4 years, collect the outrageous tuition, and shield the indigenous students from their bullshit.
  - dang 3y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Fortunately, most of your comments have been fine so this should be easy to fix. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

wavefunction 3y ago

I'd only roast you for misunderstanding the "problem" to be solved. It's not that the societies are "low-trust" but that the cost of being caught for cheating is that you continue with the life already available to you or you win a golden ticket if you're not caught. It's a no-brainer. There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to and what's the maxim about good programmers, they're so lazy they'll figure out a work-around to save themselves some time? Even if it's stuff they know already? Once you're into the system there are mutual shared interests and political efforts that can support such a career.

JohnFen 3y ago
> There's no reason to not-cheat unless you absolutely don't have to It's a shame that being a decent person is not sufficient reason.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  Many generations of people before us ended up prematurely dead by being decent people while others cheated
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    And many generations of people before us ended up prematurely dead by cheating, as well.
tristor 3y ago
You essentially just described the difference between low-trust and high-trust societies. In low-trust societies because minimal trust exists, violating trust has minimal consequences. With high-trust societies, losing trust has heavy consequences, because you've violated an expected social norm and it creates reputational damage.

mc32 3y ago

I had classmates from France which would be middling in the social trust spectrum -boy oh boy, did they cheat on homework and exams. Same for Koreans and Chinese, but Japanese didn't cheat (or at least I didn't notice).

tru3_power 3y ago

What’s even more depressing is when these liars and cheats ultimately run out of time (people start realizing) they just hop ship.

ghostbrainalpha 3y ago
Which is super encouraged by the standard, "you should be switching jobs every 2 years to maximize your wage".

psygn89 3y ago

It's the "fake it 'til you make it" and "good artists copy, great artists steal" mentality that some people really stretch and abuse the meaning of to lift any guilty conscience they would otherwise have, and think "if you can't win, then join 'em".

_puk 3y ago

According to game theory [0], it all comes right in the end.. Sadly, the time horizon is far too long, and the individual short term benefit far too high for this to be (currently) working out as hoped.. 0: https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/

asimpletune 3y ago
I looked at this and followed the whole thing. So good and interesting. It basically implies that one of the keys to a trusting society is repeated interactions and low "mistakes", I.e. things that can be perceived as evil even though they're just honest mistakes. This is why it's important for in politics and media for them to police their own behavior, because without it there are too many mistakes for a trusting society. One thing that isn't shown though in the games sandbox mode is for the players to be able to change the rules and reward structures, which is more akin to our society. This would create a much more hard to predict dynamic.

jimmydddd 3y ago

This just reminded me of a comment from my father from like 40 years ago. He was a civil engineer who designed waste water treatment plants when the US was funding it in the '70's (clean water act). Apparently there was some huge water treatment plant project in India at that time, and everyone he interviewed from that area said they had been in charge of the project.

JohnFen 3y ago

> it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I strongly disagree with that professor. Dishonesty does not have to be, and absolutely should not be, respected. Even if it is a "cultural difference" [citation required].

bumby 3y ago
>"absolutely should not be, respected" Taking issue with the 'absolute' part: The cultural context does impact what gets respected, though. For example, having an organization that avoids nepotism is generally respected in the U.S. There are other countries/cultures that do not, at least to the same degree. From their perspective, the more respectable act is to help out those in your tribe/family when you are in a position to do so.
- frumper 3y ago
  Parent specifically said dishonesty should not be respected. Helping people in your family/community is a fine goal as long as it’s not dishonest. If Bob gets hired at global corp A and is able to hire his unqualified family to the detriment of corp A then that’s just as bad. If they’re qualified then there might be a culture clash, but it doesn’t sound necessarily dishonest.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Fair enough. I maybe unfairly characterized both "dishonesty" and "nepotism" as a display of lack of integrity (by the Western definition, which tends to bias toward meritocratic values). “Dishonest” from the standpoint of deviating from the social contract of unbiased and meritocratic hiring.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I don't see nepotism as being dishonest. It may be unseemly or unfair (or not, depending on culture), but it's not dishonest.

raghudotcc 3y ago

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of students cheat, but that's true of students from other countries(like US, Uk, etc) as well. I know this from my experience as a TA. I love computer science and so do many of my friends. Edit: I should also add that I realize by low-trust OP meant the academic term for kinship-based society but my worry is that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that gets its image tarnished because of various other reasons like low-wage labour and tech scams might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent

pkdpic 3y ago
I was happy to see this comment but expected to see it much higher up. "low-trust" is obviously an established term but it's really giving me a bad feeling here. These are enormously diverse cultures and we only see a very specific filtered set of demographics that end up in the US / West.
archagon 3y ago
Not OP, but to be clear, "low trust society" has a specific sociological meaning relating to interpersonal trust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie... It doesn't mean that individuals from that society are less trustworthy.
- raghudotcc 3y ago
  I realized that’s what they meant but I was worried that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that has a tarnished image because of tech scams and low-wage tech workers might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent.
  - 3y ago

netfortius 3y ago

I assume such events are fairly common, at least in the US. I was once colleague with a [nationality to be preserved, to avoid expanded blame] guy in a CS graduate program, in the US, who had his sister (yes - different gender!) sitting a few exams for him, and passing them, of course.

giantg2 3y ago

I mean, I do see the appeal. I would guess it's better to cheat and be successful than to be honorable and be a failure. I can say that the latter really sucks.

politician 3y ago

> Luckily, my professor was right though... The explanation provided by the professor assuaged your concerns, but their salary was funded in part from the tuitions paid by the cheaters. The 'grift' is a collaboration between the academic institutions that tolerate cheating and award degrees and GPA scores, and the cheating students that game the process.

dumbotron 3y ago

> [cheating] was a cultural difference that had to be respected What he meant to say was "they pay sticker price"

msie 3y ago

To add my two bits: I don't support it.

lamontcg 3y ago

> it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society due to cultural shifts aligned to low trust societies we do business with Pull the bandaid off and just admit it -- we're just becoming one of those "low trust societies". And it has nothing to do with who we're doing business with, and it is due to our own culture.

BeetleB 3y ago

> Luckily, my professor was right though, despite exposure to a lot of negative behaviors I don't like, don't respect, and don't endorse, I did excel and I continue to excel above my peers, especially those who cheated. Disagree from my experience. When I was a TA in grad school, I had a PhD student who clearly had access to the instructor's solution manual. His answers were copied verbatim. If the solution's manual had an error, so did his answer. If the professor assigned a problem not from the book, he wouldn't answer it. I debated reporting him to the professor, but didn't want the drama and figured what your professor did: He'll do poorly on the exams (I was right), and poorly in the work place. He got his PhD, got a fairly senior position, and quickly rose to be the director of a well known company's research division. He probably was smart - he did get the PhD from a top ranked university. But I strongly suspect he gamed the system at his company just as he gamed the system there. In grad school, I had a close friend. Clearly a very bright, skilled guy. Was kicked out of the PhD program when it was discovered he had been fabricating data (Nature was right about to publish his paper when he got discovered). He went off to another top ranked university and got his PhD in the same area. I don't know how/why he had the balls to do it, as surely his former advisor would be in close proximity (conferences, etc) - and at least within my university his advisor was quite open about my friend's malfeasance. He then got a research position at the top company in his field. Got promotions, and then quit and founded a startup that is doing well, and is known to some in this crowd here. If all goes to plan, he'll have his exit and be quite rich. Now I don't know if he cheated in his second PhD or on the job, and I'm still in touch with him. But ... no - cheaters often continue to do well after graduating.

11101010001100 3y ago
Reminds of the billionaire who cheated in chess against Vishy.

darth_avocado 3y ago

Not endorsing cheating, but in the real world, everyone cheats. Somehow looking up answers in exams is considered cheating, but hiring your buddies (which is very prevalent in tech) for positions they aren’t the best candidates for is not. Everyone cheats, but somehow calling specific societies as low trust while ignoring similar behavior in others is not fair. It’s the same philosophy of “it’s not bribing it’s lobbying.”

mock-possum 3y ago

> folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I mean I'm sympathetic to your experience, the treatment you're describing is unfair, but... that also sounds pretty racist.

skanga 3y ago

[flagged]