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Wait, you think Python has good tooling? It’s literally bottom of the barrel of all the languages I’ve used. There is literally an ongoing argument about the ne

by snowe2010 3y ago

Wait, you think Python has good tooling? It’s literally bottom of the barrel of all the languages I’ve used. There is literally an ongoing argument about the new Rye tool that just got released because it brings the number of tools needed/used for Python just for _building_ up to 15!

winrid 3y ago
The debugging/repl experience is pretty good, at least.
BerislavLopac 3y ago
The key problem with Python tooling has been that, for a long time, there was a lack of good standardisation for various common functionalities, and the implementation details of independently developed tools became de facto standards: configparser's INI files for configuration [0], pip's requirements file [1] for dependency specifications and lock files, setuptool's setup.py (and later setup.cfg) [2], etc. Only recently, starting with PEP 518 [3], the core team has started a drive to define global standards for tools that affect general segments like building, dependency specifications and the like, which was then continued with PEP 508 [4] or PEP 621 [5] (we are still missing a standard for a universal lock file, but that is arguably a more difficult predicament). Hopefully, most of the common tools will with time converge to use these standards, and switching between them should become a relatively trivial exercise. At that point it won't really matter whether you use Poetry, Hatch, PDM or Rye -- the differences will amount to trivial personal preferences, similar to what we have with cars. [0] https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html [1] https://pip.pypa.io/en/stable/reference/requirements-file-format/ https://pip.pypa.io/en/stable/reference/requirements-file-fo... [2] https://setuptools.pypa.io/en/latest/userguide/quickstart.html#setuppy-discouraged https://setuptools.pypa.io/en/latest/userguide/quickstart.ht... [3] https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ [4] https://peps.python.org/pep-0508/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0508/ [5] https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/
gymbeaux 3y ago
I was thinking more like IDEs and the debugging experience and so on. Rust for example, most people probably use IntelliJ IDEA with the Rust extension, whereas with Python I get all the niceties of Pycharm. Visual Studio seems to be colloquially regarded as one of the best if not the best IDE period. With C# you also get profiling tools from JetBrains like DotMemory.

winrid 3y ago

The debugging/repl experience is pretty good, at least.

BerislavLopac 3y ago

The key problem with Python tooling has been that, for a long time, there was a lack of good standardisation for various common functionalities, and the implementation details of independently developed tools became de facto standards: configparser's INI files for configuration [0], pip's requirements file [1] for dependency specifications and lock files, setuptool's setup.py (and later setup.cfg) [2], etc. Only recently, starting with PEP 518 [3], the core team has started a drive to define global standards for tools that affect general segments like building, dependency specifications and the like, which was then continued with PEP 508 [4] or PEP 621 [5] (we are still missing a standard for a universal lock file, but that is arguably a more difficult predicament). Hopefully, most of the common tools will with time converge to use these standards, and switching between them should become a relatively trivial exercise. At that point it won't really matter whether you use Poetry, Hatch, PDM or Rye -- the differences will amount to trivial personal preferences, similar to what we have with cars. [0] https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html [1] https://pip.pypa.io/en/stable/reference/requirements-file-format/ https://pip.pypa.io/en/stable/reference/requirements-file-fo... [2] https://setuptools.pypa.io/en/latest/userguide/quickstart.html#setuppy-discouraged https://setuptools.pypa.io/en/latest/userguide/quickstart.ht... [3] https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0518/ [4] https://peps.python.org/pep-0508/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0508/ [5] https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0621/

gymbeaux 3y ago

I was thinking more like IDEs and the debugging experience and so on. Rust for example, most people probably use IntelliJ IDEA with the Rust extension, whereas with Python I get all the niceties of Pycharm. Visual Studio seems to be colloquially regarded as one of the best if not the best IDE period. With C# you also get profiling tools from JetBrains like DotMemory.