6 ms·

Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I love staring at these screenshots and

by jasim 3y ago

Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I love staring at these screenshots and spinning up a DOSBox every now and then and going thru 1-2-3, FoxPro, WordStar and so on. I don't know what I'm looking for from them, does anyone else have a clue?

bombcar 3y ago
It's a limited interface (80x25, 16 or 256 colors) and major companies spend millions of dollars over 20+ years perfecting the interface for those things. They were top tier and felt humanly understandable.
- xp84 3y ago
  To illustrate: In a DOS or terminal interface, a date field usually expected a certain format, made that format obvious in the UI, and you'd type the date with probably 6 keystrokes (numbers) (and it'd probably jump the focus right to the next field if you needed to enter more). And likewise, good software would find a reasonable way to fit everything possible on one screen. With 'modern' web-based business software, most of them implement a date field with a pop-up mousing widget. You may or may not be "allowed" to type at all, or it may not be obvious how to, and you might need 47 mouse clicks and 15 seconds to enter a DOB in the 1970s. And screens are usually not laid carefully out at all, so even with small amounts of info on the screen, there may be plenty of whitespace, necessitating scrolling back and forth constantly. A phone number field, likewise, may throw errors for using or not using the "expected" punctuation. Etc. Stuff like that would be considered an absolute failure in the old text interfaces but it's the norm now that UIs are clunky and inefficient. PS: None of this would be difficult in the web stack, it seems like the "UI/UX" designers (when they even exist) care exclusively about aesthetics.
guessbest 3y ago
DOS or more specifically MS-DOS was the platform on which the TUI, terminal user interface, applications ran. Because MS-DOS lacked universal drivers for printers and networking as well as being single tasking, it was up to vendors to provide the printer drivers, network stack as well as TSR, Terminate-and-stay-resident, programs to allow switching between applications. For most people a computer was just a function of their job and not a career, so using a single tasking program to edit a spreadsheet and sending it to someone on portable storage like a 3.5" floppy drive seemed normal. Most meetings were in person and rarely did meetings happen over group calls. MS-DOS represents that world for the majority of people working with computers in the 80's. Also, there was smoking indoors.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
  The MSDOS manual is really good too. Some of the trees used for cigarette paper were also used for books.
eddieroger 3y ago
> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I can only speak for me, but perhaps others feel the same way. It is nostalgia for me because this is the first way I experienced a computer, when everything was new to me and anything was possible. Until we got a computer, the only window outside of the world of my city was a TV, but a computer ran software of all sorts, and games, and others knew how it worked and could teach me stuff. Then the Internet came and I could talk to people anywhere in the world! What a thing this was. Now, I spend all day looking at screens. I get paid to make them work, and that's cool, but the wonder and magic of it all is gone, and I miss it. DOS and text apps just happened to be my first interface, and everyone longs for their first love. On a slightly more tactical angle, I really like typing and my keyboard, and terminal apps make it so I don't have to move my hands to a mouse and change contexts. A small thing, but it adds up. Yes, some stuff is easier with a mouse, but it's always fun to not have to change between input devices for long stretches of time.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  Two very good reasons. I agree with this but I’d also add: When you use a computer every day then sometimes anything that is different feels novel. It might be the nostalgia of an older UI or it could be listing over something new but yet to be released.
jmclnx 3y ago
for me you had direct access to the hardware, that made writing software a bit fun. In some cases you had to jump through hoops which added to the excitement. Plus almost anyone could write programs, I saw some amazing programs created as COM files.
josteink 3y ago
> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I’m not using any of those other old things you mention, but I love how I can run my full Emacs-configuration locally in a TTY, remotely over SSH or whatever with no loss of functionality. Having that capability is IMO a strength, not a weakness, and I wish more software was like that.
LVB 3y ago
There is a definitely an element of pure nostalgia from growing up with those programs, but I think there is a bit more to it. For me it evokes memories and feelings of focus. Just look at all of today's IDEs and note application that offer "distraction free" or "typewriter" modes that are echoing simpler interfaces of old. And as another commenter mentioned, these apps were extremely capable and polished. So when I'd sit down to write my papers in high school, I'd open up WordPerfect and it alone would do everything I needed, and there was literally nothing else running so I just sat down and wrote. I don't achieve that sort of single-task work style very often these days.
cesarb 3y ago
> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? Nowadays, our computers have instant access to an uncountable amount of storage, information, and software through the Internet, and even local storage is enormous. Back then, the world was much smaller; the software and data you had in your small hard disk and boxes of floppy disks (and perhaps tape, etc.) was all that you had, and you didn't have a constantly online network to distract you with an unlimited fire hose of nonstop information. That led to a closer relationship between you and the software on your computer. You had time to explore each and every corner of the software, and to read its manual (be it in the form of an online help or a paper book) from cover to cover. The software stayed the same; there was no automatic online update, no security scare blaming you for staying on a release that's more than a day old. You knew your software and hardware limitations, and adapted to them; they would stay the same until you bought more hardware, or new software (which came in colorful physical boxes, that you could put on a shelf). We have gained much since, but lost some of that sense of wonder, of making the most of memory and storage measured in megabytes or even kilobytes, processors with speeds measured in megahertz or even kilohertz, and displays with few lines and columns of characters and little color.
- JamesAdir 3y ago
  You wrote it beautifully and if I can add - software then was a tool. Like a good old hammer. You only bought a new one when needed, or a different type for a new task. Today, software is a service.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I remember spending hours and hours without sleep on a 386 with no Internet; various games and programming and references - there wasn’t enough time. Now if my Internet goes down my $$$$ M1 Pro might as well be a freaking paperweight; there’s absolutely nothing to do.
- kcartlidge 3y ago
  Exactly this. I still use WordPerfect 4.2 (DOS) and DataEase 4.5 (DOS) on a reasonably frequent basis and am much more productive. Even went as far as knocking up a simple WP4-to-Markdown converter in Go to keep the process workable. Incidentally I'm also into retro games (Spectrum, CPC, MAME, DOS) for pretty much the same reasons. In particular the memory/nostalgia is so strong because, as you put it, "the world was much smaller; the software and data you had ... was all that you had". Those games took long enough to load and were expensive enough (for a kid) to acquire that when they finally launched I stuck with them and got value from them. Modern games are (tens of?) thousands of times larger yet they are lost in a sea of content.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sldjfkdsljffkjd 3y ago
Depends on the person. I too find myself looking at text interfaces into this or that every once in a while but always come back to the same few tools: Weechat (for Slack), w3m (browser that I'm currently replying on) and vim. More recently I've been experimenting with Word Grinder which is very powerful but I don't know if it's as safe as Google Docs with respect to auto saving. For me, I use these tools in my daily life because the normal internet is just too damn noisy and gamified and addicting. I'm big on the slow internet movement and browsing the internet in w3m is a huge boon to focusing on what really matters: the words.
glimshe 3y ago
Speed, responsiveness, uncluttered UI. I AM AMAZED that the average Pascal program of the day compiled faster on my old 386 than the average program compiles today in the latest and greatest workstation. Also don't get me started on cloud remote desktops. Go compare the immediacy of this garbage vs an old DOS computer in most applications. About the UI... Dozens of flashing buttons, toasts and pings vs a Zen interface where you can, well, just focus on work.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Seems like a perfect place to mention https://danluu.com/term-latency/ https://danluu.com/term-latency/ and https://danluu.com/input-lag/ https://danluu.com/input-lag/
jedberg 3y ago
You could do everything without your fingers leaving the keyboard.
ForOldHack 3y ago
Lotus 1-2-3 was the spreadsheet that sold 10 Million PCs. When you need a quick what-if calculation, it was the go-to. Then on the Mac, someone came out with a SpreadSheet as a desk accessory. Fpx Pro was a very simple data base, and WordStar was the king of word processing. SideWays also had a Lotus 1-2-3 driver for the extended EGA modes, 43x80, 43x132, and 50x132, That worked perfectly on a VGA card on a super crisp Sony 15" Trinitron, 0.25 stripe pitch.
chasil 3y ago
Try "Joe's Own Editor" for a month or two and develop a feel for Wordstar. Then you will understand why George R.R. Martin wrote all the Game of Thrones books on his elderly Wordstar DOS PC, and will not touch a GUI.
jwrallie 3y ago
I never used 1-2-3 in the old days, my first computer had Excel 95, but particularly what is attractive about 1-2-3 and similar software interfaces is that they can be controlled entirely by the keyboard and their input is buffered, so people can develop muscle memory and operate extremely fast, even faster than the feedback from the user interface (you don't have to look). Since it is ported to Linux, you could run it remotely over ssh over slow and high latency connections with no issue. It also opens and operates instantly on any computer you can find. The nostalgia is mostly about seeing what was possible withing limited hardware, and realizing we could do better with less.

by jasim 3y ago

bombcar 3y ago

It's a limited interface (80x25, 16 or 256 colors) and major companies spend millions of dollars over 20+ years perfecting the interface for those things. They were top tier and felt humanly understandable.

xp84 3y ago
To illustrate: In a DOS or terminal interface, a date field usually expected a certain format, made that format obvious in the UI, and you'd type the date with probably 6 keystrokes (numbers) (and it'd probably jump the focus right to the next field if you needed to enter more). And likewise, good software would find a reasonable way to fit everything possible on one screen. With 'modern' web-based business software, most of them implement a date field with a pop-up mousing widget. You may or may not be "allowed" to type at all, or it may not be obvious how to, and you might need 47 mouse clicks and 15 seconds to enter a DOB in the 1970s. And screens are usually not laid carefully out at all, so even with small amounts of info on the screen, there may be plenty of whitespace, necessitating scrolling back and forth constantly. A phone number field, likewise, may throw errors for using or not using the "expected" punctuation. Etc. Stuff like that would be considered an absolute failure in the old text interfaces but it's the norm now that UIs are clunky and inefficient. PS: None of this would be difficult in the web stack, it seems like the "UI/UX" designers (when they even exist) care exclusively about aesthetics.

guessbest 3y ago

DOS or more specifically MS-DOS was the platform on which the TUI, terminal user interface, applications ran. Because MS-DOS lacked universal drivers for printers and networking as well as being single tasking, it was up to vendors to provide the printer drivers, network stack as well as TSR, Terminate-and-stay-resident, programs to allow switching between applications. For most people a computer was just a function of their job and not a career, so using a single tasking program to edit a spreadsheet and sending it to someone on portable storage like a 3.5" floppy drive seemed normal. Most meetings were in person and rarely did meetings happen over group calls. MS-DOS represents that world for the majority of people working with computers in the 80's. Also, there was smoking indoors.

0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
The MSDOS manual is really good too. Some of the trees used for cigarette paper were also used for books.

eddieroger 3y ago

> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I can only speak for me, but perhaps others feel the same way. It is nostalgia for me because this is the first way I experienced a computer, when everything was new to me and anything was possible. Until we got a computer, the only window outside of the world of my city was a TV, but a computer ran software of all sorts, and games, and others knew how it worked and could teach me stuff. Then the Internet came and I could talk to people anywhere in the world! What a thing this was. Now, I spend all day looking at screens. I get paid to make them work, and that's cool, but the wonder and magic of it all is gone, and I miss it. DOS and text apps just happened to be my first interface, and everyone longs for their first love. On a slightly more tactical angle, I really like typing and my keyboard, and terminal apps make it so I don't have to move my hands to a mouse and change contexts. A small thing, but it adds up. Yes, some stuff is easier with a mouse, but it's always fun to not have to change between input devices for long stretches of time.

hnlmorg 3y ago
Two very good reasons. I agree with this but I’d also add: When you use a computer every day then sometimes anything that is different feels novel. It might be the nostalgia of an older UI or it could be listing over something new but yet to be released.

jmclnx 3y ago

for me you had direct access to the hardware, that made writing software a bit fun. In some cases you had to jump through hoops which added to the excitement. Plus almost anyone could write programs, I saw some amazing programs created as COM files.

josteink 3y ago

> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? I’m not using any of those other old things you mention, but I love how I can run my full Emacs-configuration locally in a TTY, remotely over SSH or whatever with no loss of functionality. Having that capability is IMO a strength, not a weakness, and I wish more software was like that.

LVB 3y ago

There is a definitely an element of pure nostalgia from growing up with those programs, but I think there is a bit more to it. For me it evokes memories and feelings of focus. Just look at all of today's IDEs and note application that offer "distraction free" or "typewriter" modes that are echoing simpler interfaces of old. And as another commenter mentioned, these apps were extremely capable and polished. So when I'd sit down to write my papers in high school, I'd open up WordPerfect and it alone would do everything I needed, and there was literally nothing else running so I just sat down and wrote. I don't achieve that sort of single-task work style very often these days.

cesarb 3y ago

> Can anyone explain the deep nostalgia and longing for old DOS era software, and in particular VGA text mode interfaces? Nowadays, our computers have instant access to an uncountable amount of storage, information, and software through the Internet, and even local storage is enormous. Back then, the world was much smaller; the software and data you had in your small hard disk and boxes of floppy disks (and perhaps tape, etc.) was all that you had, and you didn't have a constantly online network to distract you with an unlimited fire hose of nonstop information. That led to a closer relationship between you and the software on your computer. You had time to explore each and every corner of the software, and to read its manual (be it in the form of an online help or a paper book) from cover to cover. The software stayed the same; there was no automatic online update, no security scare blaming you for staying on a release that's more than a day old. You knew your software and hardware limitations, and adapted to them; they would stay the same until you bought more hardware, or new software (which came in colorful physical boxes, that you could put on a shelf). We have gained much since, but lost some of that sense of wonder, of making the most of memory and storage measured in megabytes or even kilobytes, processors with speeds measured in megahertz or even kilohertz, and displays with few lines and columns of characters and little color.

JamesAdir 3y ago
You wrote it beautifully and if I can add - software then was a tool. Like a good old hammer. You only bought a new one when needed, or a different type for a new task. Today, software is a service.
bombcar 3y ago
I remember spending hours and hours without sleep on a 386 with no Internet; various games and programming and references - there wasn’t enough time. Now if my Internet goes down my $$$$ M1 Pro might as well be a freaking paperweight; there’s absolutely nothing to do.
kcartlidge 3y ago
Exactly this. I still use WordPerfect 4.2 (DOS) and DataEase 4.5 (DOS) on a reasonably frequent basis and am much more productive. Even went as far as knocking up a simple WP4-to-Markdown converter in Go to keep the process workable. Incidentally I'm also into retro games (Spectrum, CPC, MAME, DOS) for pretty much the same reasons. In particular the memory/nostalgia is so strong because, as you put it, "the world was much smaller; the software and data you had ... was all that you had". Those games took long enough to load and were expensive enough (for a kid) to acquire that when they finally launched I stuck with them and got value from them. Modern games are (tens of?) thousands of times larger yet they are lost in a sea of content.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sldjfkdsljffkjd 3y ago

Depends on the person. I too find myself looking at text interfaces into this or that every once in a while but always come back to the same few tools: Weechat (for Slack), w3m (browser that I'm currently replying on) and vim. More recently I've been experimenting with Word Grinder which is very powerful but I don't know if it's as safe as Google Docs with respect to auto saving. For me, I use these tools in my daily life because the normal internet is just too damn noisy and gamified and addicting. I'm big on the slow internet movement and browsing the internet in w3m is a huge boon to focusing on what really matters: the words.

glimshe 3y ago

Speed, responsiveness, uncluttered UI. I AM AMAZED that the average Pascal program of the day compiled faster on my old 386 than the average program compiles today in the latest and greatest workstation. Also don't get me started on cloud remote desktops. Go compare the immediacy of this garbage vs an old DOS computer in most applications. About the UI... Dozens of flashing buttons, toasts and pings vs a Zen interface where you can, well, just focus on work.

bombcar 3y ago
Seems like a perfect place to mention https://danluu.com/term-latency/ https://danluu.com/term-latency/ and https://danluu.com/input-lag/ https://danluu.com/input-lag/

jedberg 3y ago

You could do everything without your fingers leaving the keyboard.

ForOldHack 3y ago

Lotus 1-2-3 was the spreadsheet that sold 10 Million PCs. When you need a quick what-if calculation, it was the go-to. Then on the Mac, someone came out with a SpreadSheet as a desk accessory. Fpx Pro was a very simple data base, and WordStar was the king of word processing. SideWays also had a Lotus 1-2-3 driver for the extended EGA modes, 43x80, 43x132, and 50x132, That worked perfectly on a VGA card on a super crisp Sony 15" Trinitron, 0.25 stripe pitch.

chasil 3y ago

Try "Joe's Own Editor" for a month or two and develop a feel for Wordstar. Then you will understand why George R.R. Martin wrote all the Game of Thrones books on his elderly Wordstar DOS PC, and will not touch a GUI.

jwrallie 3y ago

I never used 1-2-3 in the old days, my first computer had Excel 95, but particularly what is attractive about 1-2-3 and similar software interfaces is that they can be controlled entirely by the keyboard and their input is buffered, so people can develop muscle memory and operate extremely fast, even faster than the feedback from the user interface (you don't have to look). Since it is ported to Linux, you could run it remotely over ssh over slow and high latency connections with no issue. It also opens and operates instantly on any computer you can find. The nostalgia is mostly about seeing what was possible withing limited hardware, and realizing we could do better with less.