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I understand. There are many consumers like you. We are simply speaking different languages because we value different things based on what we want from a vehi

I understand. There are many consumers like you. We are simply speaking different languages because we value different things based on what we want from a vehicle. My perspective is one from someone that does their own car maintenance/repair and has only owned used cars. When I look at a new car or truck today, I'm looking at components that are most affected by entropy. Of the features you listed, how many are likely to still work in 2033? 2043? Will any of them create a no-start condition or poor running condition if they fail? Is there a way to bypass the automatic lights with a manual switch if some part of the automatic light system becomes unobtainable at any price? Having any part of the engine ignition process connected to a DRM'ed internet connected remote start system seems insane to me, considering how many cars have problems with non-internet connected remote start systems. I fully admit that my perspective is the minority, and it's rare to have someone agree with me on HN. However, I do find many comrades at the junkyards.

germinalphrase 3y ago
Are there many new vehicles that satisfy your conditions, or are you in the vintage camp?
- LarryDarrell 3y ago
  I have a friend who has been a Automotive Engineer for 20 years and we have this conversation all the time. If I were to distill all our conversations down to one take away it would be this: There was a paradigm shift sometime shortly after the Great Recession. Before then, vehicles operated and degraded in expected and manageable ways. I'm in the vintage camp at the moment. I just replaced the Chrysler ignition system that was in my old 80s Volvo for a Bosch one that came in a later model. That and replacing the timing belt took all of one weekend and $500 (I splurged on some new parts that I didn't technically need to). The next week I drove it cross country and had a blast, somehow having the time of my life despite not having the last 35 years of features that many people can't live without.
  - caycep 3y ago
    Is there a sweet spot between parts commonality/compatibility and proper reliability engineering? I get the feeling that cars before the 90s had parts commonality but reliability was more of an afterthought.
    - LarryDarrell 3y ago
      The 80s were a weird decade. GM didn't want to give up vacuum lines, Ford had electronic fuel injection and little else, and Chrysler had those K-Cars that broke a lot, but they were at least cheap to fix. Toyotas, Hondas and Volvos of that era lasted a long time, and it would have been simple to predict had you bothered to look. Simplicity + Robustness = Longevity. Because of that equation, the domestic long running vehicles are all pickup trucks. The last era where we had any semblance of simplicity and reliability was probably the 2000s right up to the recession. Those cars and trucks were just the perfected versions of their 90s version. (Except Chrysler, it's best to avoid all era of Chrysler and I say this as former K-Car and Ram owner.) Post recession we added turbos to everything. Then came CVTs and variable timing and a slew of new engines. And then came the slow and steady computerization and electric motor actuators for everything. The length of wiring harnesses exploded. Why does my car seat now weigh 300 pounds and have 1200 position settings and climate control, etc. etc. Simplicity + Robustness = Longevity is true for any era.
      - VectorLock 3y ago
        >Except Chrysler, it's best to avoid all era of Chrysler and I say this as former K-Car and Ram owner. Jeeps are hilariously bad. Like "far and away statistically the worst" reliability wise.
        linksnapzz 3y ago
        It used to be that things not made out of steel on a Jeep would fail, but that was a minimum of parts, back in the '60s. Nowadays, though...
jjav 3y ago
> I'm looking at components that are most affected by entropy This! I have difficulty understanding why more people don't view products from this angle, as this is the thinking that dominates my thoughts when considering any purchase. Everything is going to break, that's physical reality. So how easy (cost & availability) will it be to fix? What are the consequences of things breaking? Is it just that one feature that becomes disabled until fixed, or does it take down other systems or the entire product?
- oblio 3y ago
  Most people probably sell their cars after 5 years or so. Edit: 8 years ( https://www.germaincars.com/average-length-of-car-ownership/ https://www.germaincars.com/average-length-of-car-ownership/ )
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Most people probably sell their cars after 5 (8) years or so. But these are stats from new car buyers. But of course they are selling to someone else, and so on. The always-new car buyer won't experience these problems, but these are the people rich enough to be buying new cars every handful of years. The car will live on for many decades in the second-hand market and still needs to be repaired.
    - oblio 3y ago
      The average car age is 12 years: https://www.statista.com/statistics/738667/us-vehicles-projected-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/738667/us-vehicles-proje... So that's only 4 more years on average. And modern cars are quite reliable. > The car will live on for many decades in the second-hand market and still needs to be repaired. Cars that live 20+ years are probably a minority.
      - jjav 3y ago
        > Cars that live 20+ years are probably a minority. That seems vastly unlikely? But I don't have stats one way or the other. My newest car is 19 years old and it's like new for all purposes. My other cars currently are 30 and 35 years old and aside from paint faiding they are as good as new. With reasonable maintenance, cars will last for many many decades.

germinalphrase 3y ago

Are there many new vehicles that satisfy your conditions, or are you in the vintage camp?

LarryDarrell 3y ago
I have a friend who has been a Automotive Engineer for 20 years and we have this conversation all the time. If I were to distill all our conversations down to one take away it would be this: There was a paradigm shift sometime shortly after the Great Recession. Before then, vehicles operated and degraded in expected and manageable ways. I'm in the vintage camp at the moment. I just replaced the Chrysler ignition system that was in my old 80s Volvo for a Bosch one that came in a later model. That and replacing the timing belt took all of one weekend and $500 (I splurged on some new parts that I didn't technically need to). The next week I drove it cross country and had a blast, somehow having the time of my life despite not having the last 35 years of features that many people can't live without.
- caycep 3y ago
  Is there a sweet spot between parts commonality/compatibility and proper reliability engineering? I get the feeling that cars before the 90s had parts commonality but reliability was more of an afterthought.
  - LarryDarrell 3y ago
    The 80s were a weird decade. GM didn't want to give up vacuum lines, Ford had electronic fuel injection and little else, and Chrysler had those K-Cars that broke a lot, but they were at least cheap to fix. Toyotas, Hondas and Volvos of that era lasted a long time, and it would have been simple to predict had you bothered to look. Simplicity + Robustness = Longevity. Because of that equation, the domestic long running vehicles are all pickup trucks. The last era where we had any semblance of simplicity and reliability was probably the 2000s right up to the recession. Those cars and trucks were just the perfected versions of their 90s version. (Except Chrysler, it's best to avoid all era of Chrysler and I say this as former K-Car and Ram owner.) Post recession we added turbos to everything. Then came CVTs and variable timing and a slew of new engines. And then came the slow and steady computerization and electric motor actuators for everything. The length of wiring harnesses exploded. Why does my car seat now weigh 300 pounds and have 1200 position settings and climate control, etc. etc. Simplicity + Robustness = Longevity is true for any era.
    - VectorLock 3y ago
      >Except Chrysler, it's best to avoid all era of Chrysler and I say this as former K-Car and Ram owner. Jeeps are hilariously bad. Like "far and away statistically the worst" reliability wise.
      - linksnapzz 3y ago
        It used to be that things not made out of steel on a Jeep would fail, but that was a minimum of parts, back in the '60s. Nowadays, though...

jjav 3y ago

> I'm looking at components that are most affected by entropy This! I have difficulty understanding why more people don't view products from this angle, as this is the thinking that dominates my thoughts when considering any purchase. Everything is going to break, that's physical reality. So how easy (cost & availability) will it be to fix? What are the consequences of things breaking? Is it just that one feature that becomes disabled until fixed, or does it take down other systems or the entire product?

oblio 3y ago
Most people probably sell their cars after 5 years or so. Edit: 8 years ( https://www.germaincars.com/average-length-of-car-ownership/ https://www.germaincars.com/average-length-of-car-ownership/ )
- jjav 3y ago
  > Most people probably sell their cars after 5 (8) years or so. But these are stats from new car buyers. But of course they are selling to someone else, and so on. The always-new car buyer won't experience these problems, but these are the people rich enough to be buying new cars every handful of years. The car will live on for many decades in the second-hand market and still needs to be repaired.
  - oblio 3y ago
    The average car age is 12 years: https://www.statista.com/statistics/738667/us-vehicles-projected-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/738667/us-vehicles-proje... So that's only 4 more years on average. And modern cars are quite reliable. > The car will live on for many decades in the second-hand market and still needs to be repaired. Cars that live 20+ years are probably a minority.
    - jjav 3y ago
      > Cars that live 20+ years are probably a minority. That seems vastly unlikely? But I don't have stats one way or the other. My newest car is 19 years old and it's like new for all purposes. My other cars currently are 30 and 35 years old and aside from paint faiding they are as good as new. With reasonable maintenance, cars will last for many many decades.