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I'm conflicted because there are parts of this bill that are awful and massively chilling to free speech, but also within it are provisions to make the areas di

I'm conflicted because there are parts of this bill that are awful and massively chilling to free speech, but also within it are provisions to make the areas directly outside abortion clinics free from harassment by anti-choice groups.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Serenacula 3y ago
I've not heard about that being a big issue here on the first place, and it absolutely doesn't justify the blatant dismantling of our democracy. They've been gradually pushing fascist laws into place for years, this is just the latest in a long stream. I honestly don't understand why nobody seems more concerned about stuff like this.
- Aromasin 3y ago
  Political apathy is at an all time low in the UK it feels like. We've had political upheaval after upheaval in the last 10-15 years, be it Brexit, Covid-19, Tory Austerity, the Coalition government, rising Scottish Independence sentiments, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, and Truss almost singlehandedly rocketing inflation to something we haven't seen since the financial crisis in the early 2000's. People are exhausted by a never-ending parade of scandals. The conservative government should have been out in 2019, but were saved by having a socialist, Corbyn led opposition party that did not resonate with any of their centrist Blairite voter base. Labour crumbled into infighting, and the Conservatives swept up another 48 seats. Most people just want to keep their heads down and make it through this period of financial uncertainty, waiting out until the next general election so they can oust the Conservatives. Of course the Tories are going to try and sneak in as much abhorrent policy as they can in the time they have left.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    >Political apathy is at an all time low in the UK it feels like. Do you mean all time high? "Apathy" means a "lack of interest or concern"[1], so "all time low lack of interest or concern" would suggest political interest is at an all time high due to double negatives ("low lack"). [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apathy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apathy
    - stareatgoats 3y ago
      It's not hard to understand what they meant.
    - Aromasin 3y ago
      I did mean all time high. A simple word slip.
  - okeuro49 3y ago
    > Of course the Tories are going to try and sneak in as much abhorrent policy as they can in the time they have left. Labour have been captured by the fringe outside of its own party, so I don't have much hopes for Labour over the Tories.
    - dagw 3y ago
      Labour have been captured by the fringe outside of its own party I hear this a lot from a lot of people in and around the Labour Party, but no one seems to agree on who is 'inside' and who is 'outside'. Which fringe are you referring to? The "Blairite" fringe or the "Corbynista" fringe.
  - gadders 3y ago
    Truss was in power in September/October and only put inflation up 0.5% https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi The problem with the Tories is that they have imposed some of the highest levels of personal taxation ever seen. If the Conservatives are not a low tax party, then they lose their whole purpose and we get the Labour-lite Davos-man bunch of incompetents we have now.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  > I've not heard about that being a big issue here on the first place, and it absolutely doesn't justify the blatant dismantling of our democracy. As someone who lives within walking distance of an abortion clinic, I can say that it is a very serious issue and money is pouring in to anti-choice groups in the UK.
fqyzj 3y ago
Not being able to demonstrate outside an abortion clinic is also a free speech issue.
- krapp 3y ago
  So is me not being able to demonstrate inside your house. That free speech can be limited by the right of free association, private property and public safety needs has been an established principle for centuries. And if anti-abortionists can demonstrate elsewhere, which they can and do, it isn't much of an issue. It's not as if the pro-life camp is at risk of not having their views heard if they can't block the doors to abortion clinics and call women whores and killers right to their faces.
  - fqyzj 3y ago
    >So is me not being able to demonstrate inside your house. That is quite the movement of goalposts. "Outside an abortion clinic" is by definition a public space. Inside my house is not a public space. Demonstrating in a public space should be protected as free speech.
    - krapp 3y ago
      I think you moved the goalposts from making a broad argument about free speech to now a narrow argument about property rights. Now maybe try to address my actual point, which is that no rights are absolute and always need to be balanced in context against other rights and public safety.
      - fqyzj 3y ago
        I did: >Demonstrating in a public space should be protected as free speech. That, for me, is an absolute. Demonstrating doesn't include blocking a highway or not allowing entrance to such clinic. Not even touching a client or worker. But staying there? Yes of course it should be protected.
  - causality0 3y ago
robbick 3y ago
But isn't that how they get you? By lumping in some common sense good stuff with some dystopian crap. If they really wanted to fix the issue at abortion clinics they could have done that in a small quick bill. It is a smaller scale version of the cameron government that cut everything to the bone, but they legalised gay marriage (though needed labour votes to actually get it done) so they aren't the bad guys, right? (obviously that was separate bills but I think the point works on a larger scale too)
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  For sure, I totally agree. Right now though, we have these protections and if they repeal (which they should), I hope they leave those protections in place.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
superchroma 3y ago
Nobody asked for overloaded bills. The appropriate change is to unbundle the mixed bag of policy and do it properly piece by piece.
substation13 3y ago
We can't let this "bundling" of laws allow things to slip though the net. The solution is to make a new bill with the good parts.
_joel 3y ago
How much of an issue is that in the UK? I don't think I've seen a report about it here for years, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. I'd be interested to see facts to back up this.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-abortion-groups-uk-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-aborti... Search for UK abortion clinic news. No it's no where near as bad as what happens in the US but it has been getting worse.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Somewhat. It's nowhere near the scale of the problem that the US had say ten years ago, but for some individuals it's definitely intimidating. The laws already on the books made it possible to secure orders to make a group stop for example, congregating outside your clinic harassing patients, but this power is very limited, it's local (so if your local politicians aren't supportive, too bad, even if they aren't actively working against you chances are you'll never get it up the agenda far enough to actually get a legal order without their support) and it expires - and so you end up with a situation where lots of places would like to get an order, but few secure one, and then when they do local budget constraints make it hard to justify keeping it - after all the harassment is gone, and we could use that cash to do something else. The ideal would be to live in a society where people didn't feel like screaming "murderer" at strangers and lying to as many people as possible was a reasonable social activity.
logicchains 3y ago
>within it are provisions to make the areas directly outside abortion clinics free from harassment by religious fanatics. Do they also prevent pro-abortion fanatics from demonstrating outside churches and the offices of anti-abortion lawmakers?
- smcl 3y ago
  Why on Earth would they do that? Is there a big problem with "pro-abortion fanatics" trying to stop people having access to healthcare?
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Interestingly, the FACE Act in these United States ("Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances") provides equal protection to crisis pregnancy centers and other related pro-life clinics and counseling offices. The definition used by FACE covers pro-life and pro-abortion facilities alike, and so all types of pregnancy centers have the same buffer around them, protected from fanatics who would harrass vulnerable mothers who are about to make a momentous choice which affects them, their children, the father, and their whole family.
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
You wrote the same sentence twice.
Sharlin 3y ago
Is harassment by religious fanatics right outside abortion clinics actually a problem anywhere in the West but the US? Europe doesn't really have the US-type fundamental evangelical movements at all, and Catholics are for the most part a pretty chill bunch.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  Yes, it's not as bad but there are still loons in the UK hassling every woman who goes to the clinics.
- SilverBirch 3y ago
  A massive problem with political issues in the UK is that the US constantly tries to export their bullshit to us. So yes, unfortunately there is a problem with it - although no where near the scale of the US. There's also a problem that failed politicians on the far right in the UK can essentially fund their entire political projects with support from US interests trying to push us further right.
  - Sharlin 3y ago
    Ah, should have realized :/
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Ditto Canada. Even worse by proximity, in some ways. Worse still as the UK used to be the foil.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > A massive problem with political issues in the UK is that the US constantly tries to export their bullshit to us. How does the US try to export their bullshit to the UK?
    - easytiger 3y ago
      By sharing the anglosphere
    - 3y ago
Veen 3y ago
Isn't it annoying how hard it is to ban behaviour you don't like without risking banning behaviour you approve of. What's a progressive authoritarian to do?
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  It's not that simple. They haven't been banned, they've been moved 100m down the road from outside the doors of the clinic. A very fair, and reasonable compromise I feel.
  - dataduck 3y ago
    Would it be fair to allow anti-monarchy protesters to protest only 100m from anyone celbrating the coronation?
    - silasdavis 3y ago
      Surely 100 yards would be more appropriate
    - flumpcakes 3y ago
      I think there's a difference between protesting an event and protesting individuals seeking medical help.
okeuro49 3y ago
> areas directly outside abortion clinics free from harassment by religious fanatics There are some videos of "religious fanatics" standing alone, silently, outside abortion clinics, being moved on by police, on the suspicion that they are praying in their minds. You can't really pick and choose which views are acceptable. Either you have the right to protest peacefully, guided by your own conscience, or you don't.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  It's not that simple. They are allowed to protest and have a protected right to do so; 100m down the road, where they cannot harass vulnerable women. That's the law, and I hope it stays that way.
tjpnz 3y ago
If you want freedom of speech you must also be prepared to defend it for everyone.
pookha 3y ago
I'm not conflicted at all...I fully stand in support of people I disagree with having the right to voice their minds in public without having to worry about government security forces and patty wagons.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  And I stand fully in support of proportionate curbs on freedom of speech for people determined to enforce their religious views on others in a harassing manner.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
Praying silently in one's head is "harassment"? [0][1][2] [0] https://adf.uk/parliament-introduces-thought-crime/ https://adf.uk/parliament-introduces-thought-crime/ [1] https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-woman-charged-for-silent-prayer-again/ https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-w... [2] https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-outside-english-abortion-clinic/ https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-...
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  Yes. I live near where this woman protests. Those sources you've provided are clearly biased and very inaccurate. She was arrested after breaching a protection order in that particular space after being repeatedly warned not to and being given the chance to move 100m up the street. She chose not to, and was arrested. ADF in particular are not nice people. In 2003 they even tried to recriminalise homosexuality in the US.[1] Speaking as a local resident who has to put up with her group taking up space, disrupting locals and during the pandemic flanking the outside of the abortion clinic with their faces covered, I think they should move 100m up the road where their impact is limited but they can offer whatever "help" they want to people who seek it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Defending_Freedom#Opposition_to_LGBTQ_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Defending_Freedom#Opp...
barry-cotter 3y ago
This is satire, right? You’re not actually saying you’re in favour of free speech and then in the same sentence supporting suppression of speech you dislike.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  Yes, I am. Because the world is not black and white and outside of the US, free speech is not absolute. In some countries, your right to to access abortion trumps someone elses right to stand outside and make you feel bad about it. I'm OK with that. As are the majority of folks in the UK.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Serenacula 3y ago

I've not heard about that being a big issue here on the first place, and it absolutely doesn't justify the blatant dismantling of our democracy. They've been gradually pushing fascist laws into place for years, this is just the latest in a long stream. I honestly don't understand why nobody seems more concerned about stuff like this.

Aromasin 3y ago
Political apathy is at an all time low in the UK it feels like. We've had political upheaval after upheaval in the last 10-15 years, be it Brexit, Covid-19, Tory Austerity, the Coalition government, rising Scottish Independence sentiments, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, and Truss almost singlehandedly rocketing inflation to something we haven't seen since the financial crisis in the early 2000's. People are exhausted by a never-ending parade of scandals. The conservative government should have been out in 2019, but were saved by having a socialist, Corbyn led opposition party that did not resonate with any of their centrist Blairite voter base. Labour crumbled into infighting, and the Conservatives swept up another 48 seats. Most people just want to keep their heads down and make it through this period of financial uncertainty, waiting out until the next general election so they can oust the Conservatives. Of course the Tories are going to try and sneak in as much abhorrent policy as they can in the time they have left.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >Political apathy is at an all time low in the UK it feels like. Do you mean all time high? "Apathy" means a "lack of interest or concern"[1], so "all time low lack of interest or concern" would suggest political interest is at an all time high due to double negatives ("low lack"). [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apathy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apathy
  - stareatgoats 3y ago
    It's not hard to understand what they meant.
  - Aromasin 3y ago
    I did mean all time high. A simple word slip.
- okeuro49 3y ago
  > Of course the Tories are going to try and sneak in as much abhorrent policy as they can in the time they have left. Labour have been captured by the fringe outside of its own party, so I don't have much hopes for Labour over the Tories.
  - dagw 3y ago
    Labour have been captured by the fringe outside of its own party I hear this a lot from a lot of people in and around the Labour Party, but no one seems to agree on who is 'inside' and who is 'outside'. Which fringe are you referring to? The "Blairite" fringe or the "Corbynista" fringe.
- gadders 3y ago
  Truss was in power in September/October and only put inflation up 0.5% https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi The problem with the Tories is that they have imposed some of the highest levels of personal taxation ever seen. If the Conservatives are not a low tax party, then they lose their whole purpose and we get the Labour-lite Davos-man bunch of incompetents we have now.
maxehmookau 3y ago
> I've not heard about that being a big issue here on the first place, and it absolutely doesn't justify the blatant dismantling of our democracy. As someone who lives within walking distance of an abortion clinic, I can say that it is a very serious issue and money is pouring in to anti-choice groups in the UK.

fqyzj 3y ago

Not being able to demonstrate outside an abortion clinic is also a free speech issue.

krapp 3y ago
So is me not being able to demonstrate inside your house. That free speech can be limited by the right of free association, private property and public safety needs has been an established principle for centuries. And if anti-abortionists can demonstrate elsewhere, which they can and do, it isn't much of an issue. It's not as if the pro-life camp is at risk of not having their views heard if they can't block the doors to abortion clinics and call women whores and killers right to their faces.
- fqyzj 3y ago
  >So is me not being able to demonstrate inside your house. That is quite the movement of goalposts. "Outside an abortion clinic" is by definition a public space. Inside my house is not a public space. Demonstrating in a public space should be protected as free speech.
  - krapp 3y ago
    I think you moved the goalposts from making a broad argument about free speech to now a narrow argument about property rights. Now maybe try to address my actual point, which is that no rights are absolute and always need to be balanced in context against other rights and public safety.
    - fqyzj 3y ago
      I did: >Demonstrating in a public space should be protected as free speech. That, for me, is an absolute. Demonstrating doesn't include blocking a highway or not allowing entrance to such clinic. Not even touching a client or worker. But staying there? Yes of course it should be protected.
- causality0 3y ago

robbick 3y ago

But isn't that how they get you? By lumping in some common sense good stuff with some dystopian crap. If they really wanted to fix the issue at abortion clinics they could have done that in a small quick bill. It is a smaller scale version of the cameron government that cut everything to the bone, but they legalised gay marriage (though needed labour votes to actually get it done) so they aren't the bad guys, right? (obviously that was separate bills but I think the point works on a larger scale too)

maxehmookau 3y ago
For sure, I totally agree. Right now though, we have these protections and if they repeal (which they should), I hope they leave those protections in place.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

superchroma 3y ago

Nobody asked for overloaded bills. The appropriate change is to unbundle the mixed bag of policy and do it properly piece by piece.

substation13 3y ago

We can't let this "bundling" of laws allow things to slip though the net. The solution is to make a new bill with the good parts.

_joel 3y ago

How much of an issue is that in the UK? I don't think I've seen a report about it here for years, but that's not to say it doesn't happen. I'd be interested to see facts to back up this.

jemmyw 3y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-abortion-groups-uk-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-aborti... Search for UK abortion clinic news. No it's no where near as bad as what happens in the US but it has been getting worse.
tialaramex 3y ago
Somewhat. It's nowhere near the scale of the problem that the US had say ten years ago, but for some individuals it's definitely intimidating. The laws already on the books made it possible to secure orders to make a group stop for example, congregating outside your clinic harassing patients, but this power is very limited, it's local (so if your local politicians aren't supportive, too bad, even if they aren't actively working against you chances are you'll never get it up the agenda far enough to actually get a legal order without their support) and it expires - and so you end up with a situation where lots of places would like to get an order, but few secure one, and then when they do local budget constraints make it hard to justify keeping it - after all the harassment is gone, and we could use that cash to do something else. The ideal would be to live in a society where people didn't feel like screaming "murderer" at strangers and lying to as many people as possible was a reasonable social activity.

logicchains 3y ago

>within it are provisions to make the areas directly outside abortion clinics free from harassment by religious fanatics. Do they also prevent pro-abortion fanatics from demonstrating outside churches and the offices of anti-abortion lawmakers?

smcl 3y ago
Why on Earth would they do that? Is there a big problem with "pro-abortion fanatics" trying to stop people having access to healthcare?
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Interestingly, the FACE Act in these United States ("Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances") provides equal protection to crisis pregnancy centers and other related pro-life clinics and counseling offices. The definition used by FACE covers pro-life and pro-abortion facilities alike, and so all types of pregnancy centers have the same buffer around them, protected from fanatics who would harrass vulnerable mothers who are about to make a momentous choice which affects them, their children, the father, and their whole family.

tick_tock_tick 3y ago

You wrote the same sentence twice.

Sharlin 3y ago

Is harassment by religious fanatics right outside abortion clinics actually a problem anywhere in the West but the US? Europe doesn't really have the US-type fundamental evangelical movements at all, and Catholics are for the most part a pretty chill bunch.

jemmyw 3y ago
Yes, it's not as bad but there are still loons in the UK hassling every woman who goes to the clinics.
SilverBirch 3y ago
A massive problem with political issues in the UK is that the US constantly tries to export their bullshit to us. So yes, unfortunately there is a problem with it - although no where near the scale of the US. There's also a problem that failed politicians on the far right in the UK can essentially fund their entire political projects with support from US interests trying to push us further right.
- Sharlin 3y ago
  Ah, should have realized :/
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Ditto Canada. Even worse by proximity, in some ways. Worse still as the UK used to be the foil.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > A massive problem with political issues in the UK is that the US constantly tries to export their bullshit to us. How does the US try to export their bullshit to the UK?
  - easytiger 3y ago
    By sharing the anglosphere
  - 3y ago

Veen 3y ago

Isn't it annoying how hard it is to ban behaviour you don't like without risking banning behaviour you approve of. What's a progressive authoritarian to do?

maxehmookau 3y ago
It's not that simple. They haven't been banned, they've been moved 100m down the road from outside the doors of the clinic. A very fair, and reasonable compromise I feel.
- dataduck 3y ago
  Would it be fair to allow anti-monarchy protesters to protest only 100m from anyone celbrating the coronation?
  - silasdavis 3y ago
    Surely 100 yards would be more appropriate
  - flumpcakes 3y ago
    I think there's a difference between protesting an event and protesting individuals seeking medical help.

okeuro49 3y ago

> areas directly outside abortion clinics free from harassment by religious fanatics There are some videos of "religious fanatics" standing alone, silently, outside abortion clinics, being moved on by police, on the suspicion that they are praying in their minds. You can't really pick and choose which views are acceptable. Either you have the right to protest peacefully, guided by your own conscience, or you don't.

maxehmookau 3y ago
It's not that simple. They are allowed to protest and have a protected right to do so; 100m down the road, where they cannot harass vulnerable women. That's the law, and I hope it stays that way.

tjpnz 3y ago

If you want freedom of speech you must also be prepared to defend it for everyone.

pookha 3y ago

I'm not conflicted at all...I fully stand in support of people I disagree with having the right to voice their minds in public without having to worry about government security forces and patty wagons.

maxehmookau 3y ago
And I stand fully in support of proportionate curbs on freedom of speech for people determined to enforce their religious views on others in a harassing manner.

lo_zamoyski 3y ago

Praying silently in one's head is "harassment"? [0][1][2] [0] https://adf.uk/parliament-introduces-thought-crime/ https://adf.uk/parliament-introduces-thought-crime/ [1] https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-woman-charged-for-silent-prayer-again/ https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-w... [2] https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-outside-english-abortion-clinic/ https://aleteia.org/2022/12/24/uk-woman-arrested-for-silent-...

maxehmookau 3y ago
Yes. I live near where this woman protests. Those sources you've provided are clearly biased and very inaccurate. She was arrested after breaching a protection order in that particular space after being repeatedly warned not to and being given the chance to move 100m up the street. She chose not to, and was arrested. ADF in particular are not nice people. In 2003 they even tried to recriminalise homosexuality in the US.[1] Speaking as a local resident who has to put up with her group taking up space, disrupting locals and during the pandemic flanking the outside of the abortion clinic with their faces covered, I think they should move 100m up the road where their impact is limited but they can offer whatever "help" they want to people who seek it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Defending_Freedom#Opposition_to_LGBTQ_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Defending_Freedom#Opp...

barry-cotter 3y ago

This is satire, right? You’re not actually saying you’re in favour of free speech and then in the same sentence supporting suppression of speech you dislike.

maxehmookau 3y ago
Yes, I am. Because the world is not black and white and outside of the US, free speech is not absolute. In some countries, your right to to access abortion trumps someone elses right to stand outside and make you feel bad about it. I'm OK with that. As are the majority of folks in the UK.