5 ms·

There's need, and there's expect. Unless you expect every homeowner or other property owner to do expensive and destructive testing prior to a reconfiguration,

There's need, and there's expect. Unless you expect every homeowner or other property owner to do expensive and destructive testing prior to a reconfiguration, remodel, or bringing in heavy semi-stationary loads onto their property, it's somewhat critical that concrete behave like concrete regardless of its initial use case. A simple example is in my previous home when I had a section of the master bedroom closet partially walled around a Class C TL-30 rated firesafe, and the room partially reconstructed with ballistic armor in the walls and a vault door, to turn it into a safe room for valuables + home protection. The safe had a weight of nearly 9000 pounds in a footprint of 64 by 30 inches on the floor. I was only able to do this because the house was a slab on grade construction and we knew the footing depth and slab thickness of the concrete would handle the weight. If this had been some sort of "eco concrete" it would have cracked and eventually failed under that weight, and we would not have known this because the slab thickness would have been the same. P.S.: Since everyone always asks because it's hard to find actual safes (most "safes" are garbage RSCs), it was custom built by a local safe-maker and expect to pay $$$$$. The safe I had installed was $35k, and that didn't include the room tearout/rebuild or the vault door, just the freestanding safe that went into the room.

ryukafalz 3y ago
> A simple example is in my previous home when I had a section of the master bedroom closet partially walled around a Class C TL-30 rated safe, and the room partially reconstructed with ballistic armor in the walls and a vault door, to turn it into a safe room for valuables + home protection. But... why? This does not seem like a typical use case.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Well, it is not really atypical to have one of the thousands of possible atypical use cases in any home.
- rcoveson 3y ago
  Why can't people just do exclusively normal things in their home, like eat corn flakes and consume popular media?
  - vkou 3y ago
    You're free to churn butter by hand using a toothpick in the comfort and privacy of your own home, but I wouldn't take complaints about toothpick integrity from someone doing that seriously. There are much better arguments against shitty, compromised concrete than 'I need to park a semi-truck in my bedroom closet.'
    - rcoveson 3y ago
      There are much better arguments than "I want to blow up a bomb in my house" as well. Oh, and there are better arguments than "I want to dig the house out of the ground and drop it from a great height". One example of a reasonable argument is: "I want to put a very heavy safe on the floor, which works fine when it's normal concrete".
      - rnk 3y ago
        Don't forget the other reasonable part, testing that 50 caliber machine guns can't penetrate the safety of your home walls. That's pretty normal too, right?
        akiselev 3y ago
        You've clearly never been to Compton
        vkou 3y ago
        To be fair, someone building a panic room/closet for personal protection makes a hell of a lot more sense than buying a gun for a similar purpose. Unless your threat vector is 'A cartel/the Mossad/the FBI really, really wants you dead', a cellphone and a room with no windows and a heavy door that locks from the inside will solve 99.9% of that problem, without all the problems that guns bring.
      - xigency 3y ago
        The public good of reducing CO2 emissions is a higher priority. By the way I have a safe, too. It’s 30 lbs and fireproof (supposedly).
- rnk 3y ago
  It's pretty much a rite of passage as internet millionaires to have a safe room with 9,000 lb safes isn't it? Who doesn't have a house with a ballistic safe room? I'm just trying to put the helicopter landing pad on my house and the damn HOA won't pass my building plans. I think I'm going to have to buy a bunch more houses so I can get more votes. #noNimbys
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
flavius29663 3y ago
stupid question: why keep such valuable items at home in the first place? if they are replaceable, you can just insure them. If they are not, they are better stored somewhere else, no? By having such high valuables at home, aren't you putting your family at risk? Also, why talk about these things on the internet? Isn't that painting a target on your back too? I understand the safe room, just not the safe.
- tristor 3y ago
  > why keep such valuable items at home in the first place? if they are replaceable, you can just insure them. If they are not, they are better stored somewhere else, no? You would think, unfortunately banks have done a great sleight of hand in the US limiting their liability related to safe deposit boxes /and/ safe deposit boxes available to rent are nearly impossible to find. Nearly every bank branch in any major metro will have a waiting list that is years out to get a box. What's so valuable? Well, basically the same stuff most people keep in a random desk/dresser drawer, but ought to have in a safe: Paperwork mostly, guns, jewelry. It's not like I'm storing anything worth tons and tons of money, but the insurance break on getting everything fully covered when you have that sort of safe is significant, and it's one-time up front expense to ensure you can properly store things like paperwork, guns, and jewelry which is easily worth tens of thousands of dollars anyway. The only difference between me and every other random joe that buys a gun safe at bass pro/cabela's, is that I know what an /actual/ safe is, and I went about acquiring one rather than the cheap RSC you can bypass with a pry bar and a hammer or a sawzall. > By having such high valuables at home, aren't you putting your family at risk? Many people have things at home equally valuable, they just don't bother actually doing anything to protect them. I don't think doing the work to protect them adds any additional risk. > Also, why talk about these things on the internet? Isn't that painting a target on your back too? Sure, I suppose so. That's true of so many things. I think it's important to be transparent with information though and then mitigate or hedge any risks that come with it. For instance, in my case, I'm nearly always home, I'm always armed, and my valuables are well protected. If someone were to find out and decide they wanted to rob me, the most likely outcome is they'd be leaving in a body bag, so they're unlikely to think that is a wise idea.
jollyllama 3y ago
TIL "RSC". TY.
- tristor 3y ago
  > The only difference between me and every other random joe that buys a gun safe at bass pro/cabela's, is that I know what an /actual/ safe is, and I went about acquiring one rather than the cheap RSC you can bypass with a pry bar and a hammer or a sawzall. While I'm on that topic, there's a few things everyone should know about safes. An RSC, or Residential Security Container, has a very minimum standard, and the "gun safes" even though they are heavy and bulky at bass pro are usually RSCs. They are legally required to be marked, and if they are marked RSC, they are no more secure against burglary than your typical sheet-steel locking cabinet at the hardware store. Sometimes they're actually worse. The big thick door and the big thick walls on those "gun safes"? Well, generally it's two thin sheets of steel with drywall sandwiched between them. Why drywall? Well, it helps with fire protection and is the primary way in which the safe gets fire rated. So let's talk about that drywall for a second. When you have a fire rated safe that uses drywall and it doesn't hermetically seal it, that drywall can actually cause corrosion of firearms or other metal objects and degradation of papers stored within the safe. Modern drywall is exceptionally corrosive, but usually this isn't a problem in homes because it's painted over on the inside to seal it and it off-gases to the outside where homes aren't perfectly sealed. In a safe though, you have a seam-welded outer shell, drywall, then carpet glued over it (which is also corrosive as well), or in better safes a seam-welded outer shell, drywall, then a tack welded inner shell with no carpeting. Why does drywall cause corrosion and degradation of paper? Two compounds in drywall are responsible: Formaldehyde and Sulfur. Carpet also contains huge amounts of Formaldehyde typically, as does the carpet adhesive. Formaldehyde off-gasses and is itself deeply corrosive. Sulfur compounds in the drywall combine with moisture in the air to produce a chemical reaction when encountering naturally occurring pyrite in the powdered rock base of the drywall to produce iron hydroxide and sulfuric acid when coming into contact with exposed iron and high carbon steel (e.g. what guns are made of). The iron hydroxide off-gasses and the sulfuric acid is left behind and causes corrosion and pitting. Don't be a big dummy, buy a real safe, not the crap they sell for thousands of dollars at big box stores with less than $100 in materials costs. If you are okay with the security level of an RSC you can get by with a plain locking steel cabinet.
mrexroad 3y ago
I get your point that it’s convenient to be able to blindly trust a slab, but in older houses you often have slabs that are too cracked, have settling underneath, or are otherwise unsure or suspect enough to blindly assume the “concrete will behave like concrete.” In those cases it’s pretty straight forward to just cut/demo out section of the slab, dig a new footing or prep for new slab in that area, and then reinforce as spec’d for the intended load. E.g. car lift in older garage. Even w/ new(er) construction I wouldn’t be trusting it to handle any sort of outlier use case without testing, or at least having the original blueprints w/ specs for the slab.
eecc 3y ago
ok, then color-code the pour. Just toss a tint into the mixer and all you need to to in case of later modifications is drill a pilot hole and look at the color of the dust.
robocat 3y ago
Off-topic, but could you tell me how much you think of your spending you recovered? Presumably lower home policy is a few hundred a year, and possibly you got a slightly higher price when you sold? I am ignoring your other soft benefits, and just curious about the financials.
- tristor 3y ago
  I'd say over the course of the 8 years or so we had the setup, it saved us $1600 in homeowner's insurance premiums, and when we sold it helped us get maybe an extra $10k out of the sale price, so around $11600 recovered for around $55k spent total. By the numbers, it makes no sense to do this. Realistically by the numbers, it never makes sense to do anything to a house that is anything above the minimum legal requirements and what is currently trendy and en vogue with buyers. Another thing I did on that house that I liked but made no financial sense was to put in /very/ good windows all around (around $26k spent) which netted around $5k at sale. All in, I spent around $90k in 12 years on the house, and the outcome was maybe $25k returned at sale. When you look at anything like that you should really consider how long you think you're going to stay there. I had intended to live in that house quite a lot longer, but life situations changed and I had to move out of state, so off to sale it went. Nonetheless, I don't regret any of the improvements I made because I got to live with those improvements and have a house that matched my needs/wants/desires. If I buy a house again (I'm currently renting), I'll probably have it custom built. There's simply no reason in my mind to put up with lowest-common-denominator mediocrity and normalcy in the highest cost thing you will likely ever purchase in your life, and the folks who do that to return a few higher percentage points of ROI at sale are treating themselves like they're a renter in a rental property, rather than treating themselves like a homeowner. A house isn't an investment, it's a place to live that you can do pretty much anything you want with it.
cwkoss 3y ago
Non-eco concrete is also not fungible, there are many different kinds each with different mechanical properties.
prpl 3y ago
I’d be a little cautious dropping in several tons of mass over a few inches of concrete unless I knew it was reinforced (depending on age of house), in good shape, and soil conditions - even for slab on grade. Pour conditions are highly variable too - how do you know the contractor wasn’t drunk that day. I suppose the point is that it doesn’t matter what concrete was used as long as you knew how it was actually built and current conditions of the foundation (and below the foundation for that matter).

ryukafalz 3y ago

> A simple example is in my previous home when I had a section of the master bedroom closet partially walled around a Class C TL-30 rated safe, and the room partially reconstructed with ballistic armor in the walls and a vault door, to turn it into a safe room for valuables + home protection. But... why? This does not seem like a typical use case.

marcosdumay 3y ago
Well, it is not really atypical to have one of the thousands of possible atypical use cases in any home.
rcoveson 3y ago
Why can't people just do exclusively normal things in their home, like eat corn flakes and consume popular media?
- vkou 3y ago
  You're free to churn butter by hand using a toothpick in the comfort and privacy of your own home, but I wouldn't take complaints about toothpick integrity from someone doing that seriously. There are much better arguments against shitty, compromised concrete than 'I need to park a semi-truck in my bedroom closet.'
  - rcoveson 3y ago
    There are much better arguments than "I want to blow up a bomb in my house" as well. Oh, and there are better arguments than "I want to dig the house out of the ground and drop it from a great height". One example of a reasonable argument is: "I want to put a very heavy safe on the floor, which works fine when it's normal concrete".
    - rnk 3y ago
      Don't forget the other reasonable part, testing that 50 caliber machine guns can't penetrate the safety of your home walls. That's pretty normal too, right?
      - akiselev 3y ago
        You've clearly never been to Compton
      - vkou 3y ago
        To be fair, someone building a panic room/closet for personal protection makes a hell of a lot more sense than buying a gun for a similar purpose. Unless your threat vector is 'A cartel/the Mossad/the FBI really, really wants you dead', a cellphone and a room with no windows and a heavy door that locks from the inside will solve 99.9% of that problem, without all the problems that guns bring.
    - xigency 3y ago
      The public good of reducing CO2 emissions is a higher priority. By the way I have a safe, too. It’s 30 lbs and fireproof (supposedly).
rnk 3y ago
It's pretty much a rite of passage as internet millionaires to have a safe room with 9,000 lb safes isn't it? Who doesn't have a house with a ballistic safe room? I'm just trying to put the helicopter landing pad on my house and the damn HOA won't pass my building plans. I think I'm going to have to buy a bunch more houses so I can get more votes. #noNimbys
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

flavius29663 3y ago

stupid question: why keep such valuable items at home in the first place? if they are replaceable, you can just insure them. If they are not, they are better stored somewhere else, no? By having such high valuables at home, aren't you putting your family at risk? Also, why talk about these things on the internet? Isn't that painting a target on your back too? I understand the safe room, just not the safe.

tristor 3y ago
> why keep such valuable items at home in the first place? if they are replaceable, you can just insure them. If they are not, they are better stored somewhere else, no? You would think, unfortunately banks have done a great sleight of hand in the US limiting their liability related to safe deposit boxes /and/ safe deposit boxes available to rent are nearly impossible to find. Nearly every bank branch in any major metro will have a waiting list that is years out to get a box. What's so valuable? Well, basically the same stuff most people keep in a random desk/dresser drawer, but ought to have in a safe: Paperwork mostly, guns, jewelry. It's not like I'm storing anything worth tons and tons of money, but the insurance break on getting everything fully covered when you have that sort of safe is significant, and it's one-time up front expense to ensure you can properly store things like paperwork, guns, and jewelry which is easily worth tens of thousands of dollars anyway. The only difference between me and every other random joe that buys a gun safe at bass pro/cabela's, is that I know what an /actual/ safe is, and I went about acquiring one rather than the cheap RSC you can bypass with a pry bar and a hammer or a sawzall. > By having such high valuables at home, aren't you putting your family at risk? Many people have things at home equally valuable, they just don't bother actually doing anything to protect them. I don't think doing the work to protect them adds any additional risk. > Also, why talk about these things on the internet? Isn't that painting a target on your back too? Sure, I suppose so. That's true of so many things. I think it's important to be transparent with information though and then mitigate or hedge any risks that come with it. For instance, in my case, I'm nearly always home, I'm always armed, and my valuables are well protected. If someone were to find out and decide they wanted to rob me, the most likely outcome is they'd be leaving in a body bag, so they're unlikely to think that is a wise idea.

jollyllama 3y ago

TIL "RSC". TY.

tristor 3y ago
> The only difference between me and every other random joe that buys a gun safe at bass pro/cabela's, is that I know what an /actual/ safe is, and I went about acquiring one rather than the cheap RSC you can bypass with a pry bar and a hammer or a sawzall. While I'm on that topic, there's a few things everyone should know about safes. An RSC, or Residential Security Container, has a very minimum standard, and the "gun safes" even though they are heavy and bulky at bass pro are usually RSCs. They are legally required to be marked, and if they are marked RSC, they are no more secure against burglary than your typical sheet-steel locking cabinet at the hardware store. Sometimes they're actually worse. The big thick door and the big thick walls on those "gun safes"? Well, generally it's two thin sheets of steel with drywall sandwiched between them. Why drywall? Well, it helps with fire protection and is the primary way in which the safe gets fire rated. So let's talk about that drywall for a second. When you have a fire rated safe that uses drywall and it doesn't hermetically seal it, that drywall can actually cause corrosion of firearms or other metal objects and degradation of papers stored within the safe. Modern drywall is exceptionally corrosive, but usually this isn't a problem in homes because it's painted over on the inside to seal it and it off-gases to the outside where homes aren't perfectly sealed. In a safe though, you have a seam-welded outer shell, drywall, then carpet glued over it (which is also corrosive as well), or in better safes a seam-welded outer shell, drywall, then a tack welded inner shell with no carpeting. Why does drywall cause corrosion and degradation of paper? Two compounds in drywall are responsible: Formaldehyde and Sulfur. Carpet also contains huge amounts of Formaldehyde typically, as does the carpet adhesive. Formaldehyde off-gasses and is itself deeply corrosive. Sulfur compounds in the drywall combine with moisture in the air to produce a chemical reaction when encountering naturally occurring pyrite in the powdered rock base of the drywall to produce iron hydroxide and sulfuric acid when coming into contact with exposed iron and high carbon steel (e.g. what guns are made of). The iron hydroxide off-gasses and the sulfuric acid is left behind and causes corrosion and pitting. Don't be a big dummy, buy a real safe, not the crap they sell for thousands of dollars at big box stores with less than $100 in materials costs. If you are okay with the security level of an RSC you can get by with a plain locking steel cabinet.

mrexroad 3y ago

I get your point that it’s convenient to be able to blindly trust a slab, but in older houses you often have slabs that are too cracked, have settling underneath, or are otherwise unsure or suspect enough to blindly assume the “concrete will behave like concrete.” In those cases it’s pretty straight forward to just cut/demo out section of the slab, dig a new footing or prep for new slab in that area, and then reinforce as spec’d for the intended load. E.g. car lift in older garage. Even w/ new(er) construction I wouldn’t be trusting it to handle any sort of outlier use case without testing, or at least having the original blueprints w/ specs for the slab.

eecc 3y ago

ok, then color-code the pour. Just toss a tint into the mixer and all you need to to in case of later modifications is drill a pilot hole and look at the color of the dust.

robocat 3y ago

Off-topic, but could you tell me how much you think of your spending you recovered? Presumably lower home policy is a few hundred a year, and possibly you got a slightly higher price when you sold? I am ignoring your other soft benefits, and just curious about the financials.

tristor 3y ago
I'd say over the course of the 8 years or so we had the setup, it saved us $1600 in homeowner's insurance premiums, and when we sold it helped us get maybe an extra $10k out of the sale price, so around $11600 recovered for around $55k spent total. By the numbers, it makes no sense to do this. Realistically by the numbers, it never makes sense to do anything to a house that is anything above the minimum legal requirements and what is currently trendy and en vogue with buyers. Another thing I did on that house that I liked but made no financial sense was to put in /very/ good windows all around (around $26k spent) which netted around $5k at sale. All in, I spent around $90k in 12 years on the house, and the outcome was maybe $25k returned at sale. When you look at anything like that you should really consider how long you think you're going to stay there. I had intended to live in that house quite a lot longer, but life situations changed and I had to move out of state, so off to sale it went. Nonetheless, I don't regret any of the improvements I made because I got to live with those improvements and have a house that matched my needs/wants/desires. If I buy a house again (I'm currently renting), I'll probably have it custom built. There's simply no reason in my mind to put up with lowest-common-denominator mediocrity and normalcy in the highest cost thing you will likely ever purchase in your life, and the folks who do that to return a few higher percentage points of ROI at sale are treating themselves like they're a renter in a rental property, rather than treating themselves like a homeowner. A house isn't an investment, it's a place to live that you can do pretty much anything you want with it.

cwkoss 3y ago

Non-eco concrete is also not fungible, there are many different kinds each with different mechanical properties.

prpl 3y ago

I’d be a little cautious dropping in several tons of mass over a few inches of concrete unless I knew it was reinforced (depending on age of house), in good shape, and soil conditions - even for slab on grade. Pour conditions are highly variable too - how do you know the contractor wasn’t drunk that day. I suppose the point is that it doesn’t matter what concrete was used as long as you knew how it was actually built and current conditions of the foundation (and below the foundation for that matter).