6 ms·

> if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory

> if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer

sokoloff 4y ago
That brings up an interesting question: “Is NEMA 5-15 in fact standardized by force of law?”
- dijit 4y ago
  No, you can have receptacles of any shape in the USA, at least at the federal level. However it's not uncommon for this to be enforced by law, for example it is a legal requirement that in the UK all goods sold must adhere to the BS 1363-1 standard.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    Ok, how about at most state levels then? I seriously doubt you could wire up new construction in a completely nonstandard way and then expect to pass inspection.
    - riskable 4y ago
      I'm pretty sore 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC). Specifically, NFPA 70. They just delegate the authority as to what's "standard" to that non-governmental body. Every few years the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)--which is a non-governmental nonprofit--publishes an updated standard and then it's up to all the state legislatures to update the laws to require the new standard. The problem is that the NFPA doesn't just post the NEC for free on the Internet. You have to pay for it (which is ridiculous) and it's copyrighted and as such, illegal to just give away. There was a lawsuit in Georgia that was supposed to determine whether or not that situation was OK (having laws that require expensive fees to view may be unconstitutional since that's like having secret laws). I don't know what the outcome was of that though.
      - themaninthedark 4y ago
        Part of the Georgia problem is that our laws are the same way! The legislators would vote to adopt case law that had added notes/ guidance by a third party, the third party would change fees to view what is then now the law!
        Multicomp 4y ago
        https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/after-supreme-court-copyright-fight-georgia-makes-annotated-legal-code-freely-available https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/after-supreme-court-... The Supreme Court in 2020 ruled that OGCA is not copyrightable, this in 2022 indicates that it has been made available to the public for free.
        themaninthedark 4y ago
        Nice, I missed that! Glad to hear that some sanity was injected back into the system!
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        > I'm pretty [sure] 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC). There are four states who have not adopted the NEC on a statewide basis, leaving any such decision to the local authorities having jurisdiction: Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri.
- philistine 4y ago
  I think you can make a legal arguement that the way the standards are enshrined in law and there are legal consequences for straying from agreed upon standards, that it is indeed standardized by force of law.
  - cf100clunk 4y ago
    Further to the de jure standardization related to consumer safety laws and civil cases, the insurance industry has created a de facto standardization by refusing to cover or pay out if non-standard electric plugs and receptacles are or were used.
- joenathanone 4y ago
  Yes, via building/construction codes.
  - adrr 4y ago
    And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. How much energy is wasted converting AC to DC?
    - ghouse 4y ago
      Rectifiers (which convert AC to DC) are quite efficient. Apparently up to 98% [0] And then there is the voltage conversion, which traditionally happened on the AC side (inexpensive and simple AC transformers are generally why the transmission and distribution systems are AC). Modern power supplies allow for buck/boost on the DC side. USB-C power supplies are above 90% efficient. [1] [0] https://eepower.com/new-industry-products/huawei-claims-most-efficient-rectifier-at-98-conversion-efficiency/ https://eepower.com/new-industry-products/huawei-claims-most... [1] https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidudw2c/tidudw2c.pdf?ts=1683500425525& https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidudw2c/tidudw2c.pdf?ts=168350042...
    - phkahler 4y ago
      >> And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea? BTW Europe having 3-phase AC to the home is brilliant. Wish we had that in the U.S.
      - adrr 4y ago
        Fact that the US main power distribution network(eg: pacific DC intertie)runs on DC that we concert back to AC for regional distribution and then back to DC to power our houses like lights, tv, electronics etc. AC is inefficient long distances and still needs to be converted to DC to power our stuff.
        phkahler 4y ago
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Funnily enough, power plugs are far from standardized within EU, and there are multiple non-compatible variants (well, one less after the brexit).
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Ireland, Malta and Cyprus use British plugs and other electrical standards.
fbdab103 4y ago
This was exactly the phone charging situation before the EU made a similar proposal[0]. Previously every phone brand and model used a bespoke charger so that you were forced to buy a spare charger from the vendor. Of course Apple continued to do its own thing by skirting the intent of the law. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
- nickpp 4y ago
  That hasn't been true in quite a while, the market has unified around two standards (lightning and usb-c) without EU's intervention. Their previous recommendation from 2010 was for micro-usb and it was toothless as it wasn't a mandate. The current authoritarian power play for pushing usb-c on Apple is completely unwarranted by the market conditions. It's pure politics.
  - maweki 4y ago
    You make it out like the fear of regulatory action does not exist.
  - nawgz 4y ago
    Pretty disingenuous representation. The market unified around USB-C, except for Apple, who continued to be the sole player pushing proprietary charging ports Therefore, regulation is actually only impacting one player, and is extremely likely to reduce electronics waste, which makes it quite a nice political move. The claim of "authoritarianism" makes no sense, because governments are regulatory bodies and this regulatory move has clear motivations and positive expected outcomes, plus is incredibly easy to enforce. Nice try though.
  - mtmail 4y ago
    My electric razor uses a different cable connector to charge, my battery charger, my bicycle lamps (two different brands) ... All purchased in the last 5 years. The EU regulation isn't just about mobile phones.
Aerroon 4y ago
But we already kind of have this problem. If I order a microwave from the UK and ship it to my other European country, then I'm already dealing with a power plug that is incompatible. This also means that the power plugs can't be optimal (ie there's room to improve), because all the different variants can't all be optimal at the same time. And yet, actually ever improving the power plug design is probably never going to happen.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Within the EU, if you order a microwave from France to be delivered to Ireland it should be provided with the correct plug. Generally, something larger like a microwave or TV would come with an alternative power cord. Something smaller comes with a 2-prong European plug and a semi-permanent UK/Ireland adapter. (Incidentally, the EU considered changing to a single mains plug, but wisely decided it wasn't worth the hassle.)
- crote 4y ago
  Unfortunately the UK is no longer in the European Union, so their plug is never going to be unified. The EU seriously considered unifying wall sockets, but in the end it turned out to not really be worth the effort. Most devices have either a Europlug or CEE 7/7 plug, which are compatible with virtually all wall sockets in the EU. Italy and Denmark are slowly switching their proprietary wall sockets to the more common Schuko variant, if I recall correctly, so improving it isn't impossible!
musicale 4y ago
> Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket. I have several AC powered devices that use the same wall socket plug but have different on-device sockets - some with very different shapes. Even a single manufacturer may require different power cables: the original PS2, PS3, and PS4 all have different and incompatible power sockets and cables (squared/polarized 2-prong, "standard" 3-prong, and figure-8 2-prong, respectively). US homes often have 220V sockets for large appliances (electric clothes dryers) as well as 110V sockets for smaller appliances (handheld hair dryers.) The sockets/plugs/cables are different and are not compatible. As I understand it, every iPhone already comes with a charging cable in the box that plugs into a standard USB C power socket. Already better than anything with a wall wart power supply. But I'm pretty much in favor of addressing the absurd proliferation of incompatible wall warts and other DC power supplies, even though they plug into the same wall socket.
- abenga 4y ago
  > You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket. And the intent of the law is to bring the uniformity that exists in wall sockets to the on-device sockets.
  - musicale 4y ago
    Perhaps that's a clearer version of what PP was trying to say? But the analogy doesn't hold up well, because: 1. There are currently several kinds of wall power voltages and plugs/receptacles commonly in use the US. Notable examples are the various 220-240V NEMA receptacles and the various 110-120V receptacles such as polarized 2-prong, unpolarized 2-prong, and 3-prong/grounded. 2. Although there are code requirements (e.g requiring that new outlets be grounded and polarized, or requiring ground fault protection in bathrooms) it doesn't appear that they mandate a particular plug or receptacle design (?) Though the NEMA (trade association) developed plugs can and do conform to the code requirements. 3. Power cords and on-device sockets aren't entirely standardized, but it's not nearly as big a deal as if there were dozens of 110-120V wall socket types rather than the three in common use.

sokoloff 4y ago

That brings up an interesting question: “Is NEMA 5-15 in fact standardized by force of law?”

dijit 4y ago
No, you can have receptacles of any shape in the USA, at least at the federal level. However it's not uncommon for this to be enforced by law, for example it is a legal requirement that in the UK all goods sold must adhere to the BS 1363-1 standard.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  Ok, how about at most state levels then? I seriously doubt you could wire up new construction in a completely nonstandard way and then expect to pass inspection.
  - riskable 4y ago
    I'm pretty sore 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC). Specifically, NFPA 70. They just delegate the authority as to what's "standard" to that non-governmental body. Every few years the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)--which is a non-governmental nonprofit--publishes an updated standard and then it's up to all the state legislatures to update the laws to require the new standard. The problem is that the NFPA doesn't just post the NEC for free on the Internet. You have to pay for it (which is ridiculous) and it's copyrighted and as such, illegal to just give away. There was a lawsuit in Georgia that was supposed to determine whether or not that situation was OK (having laws that require expensive fees to view may be unconstitutional since that's like having secret laws). I don't know what the outcome was of that though.
    - themaninthedark 4y ago
      Part of the Georgia problem is that our laws are the same way! The legislators would vote to adopt case law that had added notes/ guidance by a third party, the third party would change fees to view what is then now the law!
      - Multicomp 4y ago
        https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/after-supreme-court-copyright-fight-georgia-makes-annotated-legal-code-freely-available https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/after-supreme-court-... The Supreme Court in 2020 ruled that OGCA is not copyrightable, this in 2022 indicates that it has been made available to the public for free.
        themaninthedark 4y ago
        Nice, I missed that! Glad to hear that some sanity was injected back into the system!
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      > I'm pretty [sure] 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC). There are four states who have not adopted the NEC on a statewide basis, leaving any such decision to the local authorities having jurisdiction: Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri.
philistine 4y ago
I think you can make a legal arguement that the way the standards are enshrined in law and there are legal consequences for straying from agreed upon standards, that it is indeed standardized by force of law.
- cf100clunk 4y ago
  Further to the de jure standardization related to consumer safety laws and civil cases, the insurance industry has created a de facto standardization by refusing to cover or pay out if non-standard electric plugs and receptacles are or were used.
joenathanone 4y ago
Yes, via building/construction codes.
- adrr 4y ago
  And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. How much energy is wasted converting AC to DC?
  - ghouse 4y ago
    Rectifiers (which convert AC to DC) are quite efficient. Apparently up to 98% [0] And then there is the voltage conversion, which traditionally happened on the AC side (inexpensive and simple AC transformers are generally why the transmission and distribution systems are AC). Modern power supplies allow for buck/boost on the DC side. USB-C power supplies are above 90% efficient. [1] [0] https://eepower.com/new-industry-products/huawei-claims-most-efficient-rectifier-at-98-conversion-efficiency/ https://eepower.com/new-industry-products/huawei-claims-most... [1] https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidudw2c/tidudw2c.pdf?ts=1683500425525& https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidudw2c/tidudw2c.pdf?ts=168350042...
  - phkahler 4y ago
    >> And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea? BTW Europe having 3-phase AC to the home is brilliant. Wish we had that in the U.S.
    - adrr 4y ago
      Fact that the US main power distribution network(eg: pacific DC intertie)runs on DC that we concert back to AC for regional distribution and then back to DC to power our houses like lights, tv, electronics etc. AC is inefficient long distances and still needs to be converted to DC to power our stuff.
      - phkahler 4y ago
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Funnily enough, power plugs are far from standardized within EU, and there are multiple non-compatible variants (well, one less after the brexit).
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Ireland, Malta and Cyprus use British plugs and other electrical standards.

fbdab103 4y ago

This was exactly the phone charging situation before the EU made a similar proposal[0]. Previously every phone brand and model used a bespoke charger so that you were forced to buy a spare charger from the vendor. Of course Apple continued to do its own thing by skirting the intent of the law. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

nickpp 4y ago
That hasn't been true in quite a while, the market has unified around two standards (lightning and usb-c) without EU's intervention. Their previous recommendation from 2010 was for micro-usb and it was toothless as it wasn't a mandate. The current authoritarian power play for pushing usb-c on Apple is completely unwarranted by the market conditions. It's pure politics.
- maweki 4y ago
  You make it out like the fear of regulatory action does not exist.
- nawgz 4y ago
  Pretty disingenuous representation. The market unified around USB-C, except for Apple, who continued to be the sole player pushing proprietary charging ports Therefore, regulation is actually only impacting one player, and is extremely likely to reduce electronics waste, which makes it quite a nice political move. The claim of "authoritarianism" makes no sense, because governments are regulatory bodies and this regulatory move has clear motivations and positive expected outcomes, plus is incredibly easy to enforce. Nice try though.
- mtmail 4y ago
  My electric razor uses a different cable connector to charge, my battery charger, my bicycle lamps (two different brands) ... All purchased in the last 5 years. The EU regulation isn't just about mobile phones.

Aerroon 4y ago

But we already kind of have this problem. If I order a microwave from the UK and ship it to my other European country, then I'm already dealing with a power plug that is incompatible. This also means that the power plugs can't be optimal (ie there's room to improve), because all the different variants can't all be optimal at the same time. And yet, actually ever improving the power plug design is probably never going to happen.

Symbiote 4y ago
Within the EU, if you order a microwave from France to be delivered to Ireland it should be provided with the correct plug. Generally, something larger like a microwave or TV would come with an alternative power cord. Something smaller comes with a 2-prong European plug and a semi-permanent UK/Ireland adapter. (Incidentally, the EU considered changing to a single mains plug, but wisely decided it wasn't worth the hassle.)
crote 4y ago
Unfortunately the UK is no longer in the European Union, so their plug is never going to be unified. The EU seriously considered unifying wall sockets, but in the end it turned out to not really be worth the effort. Most devices have either a Europlug or CEE 7/7 plug, which are compatible with virtually all wall sockets in the EU. Italy and Denmark are slowly switching their proprietary wall sockets to the more common Schuko variant, if I recall correctly, so improving it isn't impossible!

musicale 4y ago

> Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket. I have several AC powered devices that use the same wall socket plug but have different on-device sockets - some with very different shapes. Even a single manufacturer may require different power cables: the original PS2, PS3, and PS4 all have different and incompatible power sockets and cables (squared/polarized 2-prong, "standard" 3-prong, and figure-8 2-prong, respectively). US homes often have 220V sockets for large appliances (electric clothes dryers) as well as 110V sockets for smaller appliances (handheld hair dryers.) The sockets/plugs/cables are different and are not compatible. As I understand it, every iPhone already comes with a charging cable in the box that plugs into a standard USB C power socket. Already better than anything with a wall wart power supply. But I'm pretty much in favor of addressing the absurd proliferation of incompatible wall warts and other DC power supplies, even though they plug into the same wall socket.

abenga 4y ago
> You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket. And the intent of the law is to bring the uniformity that exists in wall sockets to the on-device sockets.
- musicale 4y ago
  Perhaps that's a clearer version of what PP was trying to say? But the analogy doesn't hold up well, because: 1. There are currently several kinds of wall power voltages and plugs/receptacles commonly in use the US. Notable examples are the various 220-240V NEMA receptacles and the various 110-120V receptacles such as polarized 2-prong, unpolarized 2-prong, and 3-prong/grounded. 2. Although there are code requirements (e.g requiring that new outlets be grounded and polarized, or requiring ground fault protection in bathrooms) it doesn't appear that they mandate a particular plug or receptacle design (?) Though the NEMA (trade association) developed plugs can and do conform to the code requirements. 3. Power cords and on-device sockets aren't entirely standardized, but it's not nearly as big a deal as if there were dozens of 110-120V wall socket types rather than the three in common use.